Floating an idea around - a quicksand story "treatise"

[Viridian]

I see. I think I have been very much fixated on the actual sinking and struggling in most of my stories. My latest CYOA-style story did actually offer options to leave the sinking scene for a while (to pick up clothes or go to the car), but those got too few votes. Maybe I'll give those a story paths a shot anyway, or try one of the new ideas I'm getting now.

CYOA is quite different, because you find yourself offering non-desirable choices to a target audience with specific demands. Of course the majority of readers want to get to the quicksand as soon as possible. However, as a writer, you give the reader what they need for a fulfilling experience, not necessarily what they want. Because you're taking the most popular option, you're limited in what you end up writing (which is, as you said, only quicksand).

I expressed a bit of disappointment in your last CYOA, and my main gripe was that there was little plot development, followed with a minor gripe about repetitive choices (e.g. "get your clothes"). The audience is going to choose the most quicksandy and/or nude option more times than not, and the story didn't really reveal a reward for picking the non-bog option. What ended up happening was pretty much the result of "dumb" choices -- the reader got what they wanted, but to me it wasn't a fulfilling story to read. I should emphasise that I thought it was a well-written CYOA and the grim ending was well-done and appropriate. I just, personally, didn't get the buzz out of reading the CYOA.

I think the fundamental in making a good CYOA (and a good story in general) is for the author to control when the quicksand happens. It is up to the author to create the suspense and to direct the story in a direction that leaves the reader wanting to go on. I've done my own CYOA ("Den of the Dragon") and that also met an aborted end when the only option, really, was to go into the quicksand. Where I felt it took off was when I was in full control of when the quicksand would appear, but the reader could choose how the scene would play out. Otherwise, the audience will simply choose the QS path each and every time.

I recall an RP on the story forum in which I continually tried getting my character out of QS to get some plot development going (otherwise it was 10 pages of splashing around in a bog), but other RPers kept on dunking her back in. I was pretty frustrated and left it.

In short, don't cave in to what the reader wants. One of the things that drives up the suspense for me is not knowing when the quicksand will pop up. If I was doing a similar skinny-dipping scenario, what if the character stumbled into quicksand the moment they got out of the lake, and the roles were reversed? Now the protagonist is naked and sinking, and the would-be victim turns up after escaping on her own, but now topless and has to save you. That's something the reader won't expect and it's something you can control.

...I think we're onto something.

[Fred588]

There is a story I wrote about a dozen years ago called "The Quicksand Pipe," that may be helpful to this discussion. It has been posted here in the past and is currently posted at quicksandland.com under "The Written Word."

The story is really about an adventure of a cave explorer and the quicksand is really a mud sump (a cave pasasage filled with soft mud). Its relevence to this discussion, I think, is as anexample of a story that is not about a quicksand sinking but includes one (or something similar) as part of the action.

[Aiko]

CYOA is quite different, because you find yourself offering non-desirable choices to a target audience with specific demands. Of course the majority of readers want to get to the quicksand as soon as possible. However, as a writer, you give the reader what they need for a fulfilling experience, not necessarily what they want. Because you're taking the most popular option, you're limited in what you end up writing (which is, as you said, only quicksand).

I expressed a bit of disappointment in your last CYOA, and my main gripe was that there was little plot development, followed with a minor gripe about repetitive choices (e.g. "get your clothes"). The audience is going to choose the most quicksandy and/or nude option more times than not, and the story didn't really reveal a reward for picking the non-bog option. What ended up happening was pretty much the result of "dumb" choices -- the reader got what they wanted, but to me it wasn't a fulfilling story to read. I should emphasise that I thought it was a well-written CYOA and the grim ending was well-done and appropriate. I just, personally, didn't get the buzz out of reading the CYOA.

I think the fundamental in making a good CYOA (and a good story in general) is for the author to control when the quicksand happens. It is up to the author to create the suspense and to direct the story in a direction that leaves the reader wanting to go on. I've done my own CYOA ("Den of the Dragon") and that also met an aborted end when the only option, really, was to go into the quicksand. Where I felt it took off was when I was in full control of when the quicksand would appear, but the reader could choose how the scene would play out. Otherwise, the audience will simply choose the QS path each and every time.

...

I did think of it more as a game and so much as a story, and so I willingly handed over a lot of control to the reader. Keeping too much control will mean that the choices offered have little impact on the story line, and that too will cause readers to lose interest. I think the key is to maintain a good balance so both the story and the game aspect have sufficient appeal.

You are also correct that I did not care too much about character development or anything besides the actual rescue/sinking scene. It was also kind of an experiment to see whether there would be a happy ending or whether the "dumb" choices would always win. And it was a pretty close call in the end.

I have another - currently still rather vague - idea for another CYOA, which will offer choices that should appear totally unrelated to the sinking scene and its outcome at first glance. It's far more elaborate than what I just did and should make for a much more intriguing read.

( By the way, Aiko, your English is fine. I would never had guessed it wasn't your native language.)

Thank you.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I wanted to add my two cents to the discussion on CYOA stories that I agree with Viridian. I've done a couple now (one published as a comic on Deviant Art, one unpublished but substantially longer in written form) and I see the same problem from the perspective as the writer as letting the audience choose the path. My stories are closed so that you are only presented options like you would in the books (no request element there). I found as I was working on them that the parts I really wanted to work on were the "good parts" (i.e. the quicksand scenes) and that the other parts weren't as interesting. I raced through those stories looking for ways to get you there, but exploring the other paths was not as fun. So when I decided to do my Zelda CYOA story as a comic it was a really, really dumb idea. Because each comic page takes a long time to draw, and now that you're splitting branches off it takes that many times longer (my story is a 2 x 2 x 2 story so there are about 8 outcomes, plus the branching pages to get you there, and that is about the most basic story you can have!).

All that being said, I really love the idea of non-linear story telling. Every time I go back and look at the story I've written, I like following it down a different path each time to get a different (emotional) outcome. I find it better than a simple story because I feel like I have some influence over the outcome, even if I know what will happen. And I hope for those people going through it the first time, there is a thrill of discovery along the way as you read the story as you would like it.

I think for my unpublished story I'm going to keep that in text, and maybe add in an occasional illustration (an urge I will have to fight with because these days I want to do everything as a comic, which slows my production to a halt because they take that much longer).

[Lomax]

I recall we had a small writer's workshop group on the DS forum too, back when we had a small corps of frequent writers (Lomax, wubble, Rusty Shackleford, to name a few).

Those were the days...

I'm writing again after a long break. It's hard, sometimes. Well, it's hard all the time, but bloody hard some of the time.

But if you ask me HOW to write a DS story - well, I'd have to say that I haven't the faintest idea. I suppose I have a style, though I couldn't say what it is. Still less would I assert that the way I write is the best way to approach the problem. All I can say is sit down at the keyboard and hope that somethng drops out of the fingers.

[Parzival2600]

When it comes to contributions, my baliwick has always been the written word both Qs and non qs. I happen to love prose, and I'd gladly another writer when asked. As for how to write a QS story, well there is no real answer for that. In the end it's subjective. You have to like what you write, so write what you like. Two of my favorite authors Philip K. Dick and Ray Bradbury rarely agonized over a story. They took a tiny idea, sat down and wrote it. Period. Don't over think, just write. Try to write it in one sitting without correcting or editing. When it's finished then you can go back and tweak. Let the idea flow uninterrupted.

This was a QS writer years ago whose work I rather enjoyed. I don't recall his name but one of his stories had a girl sinking into quicksand as a result of a reality bending TV feature. I found that clever and different. He seemed to pump stories out frequently. They were simple yet enjoyable.

Everyone has their own taste. Write what you like. As Stephen King once said "I write for me, not the audience. Their just along for the ride."

-Parzival
"Is Hell exothermic or Endothermic?"

[Viridian]

That may have been Stormwind (aka Longshot, Stormwhisper) and his Vicki Reynolds series.

[jack c]

The stories I posted once upon a time were based all partly on my own experience, or of placing people from my past into the story. I have not posted a story for a year or more. I would be interested in participating in some kind of thread type story just to get back into writing. Viridian - your stories were among the best. I also liked "The Creekbed" by Jen - I see it has over 8,000 hits at present. I will follow this with interest.

- jack