Dear Producers: The sudden submersion... not a fan

[dlodoski]

Good thread.

I was out of town all week, and just had the occasion to read every post in this topic.

All I can say is, just wait.

Last season, I had a marginal budget and just weeks to prepare Camp MPV for shooting. Next season should be quite different.

[newtothis2]

Good thread.

I was out of town all week, and just had the occasion to read every post in this topic.

All I can say is, just wait.

Last season, I had a marginal budget and just weeks to prepare Camp MPV for shooting. Next season should be quite different.

Now that's what I call a Tease!!!!

[Chimerix]

At one of the first shoots by anothe producer using Studio 588, there was an attempt to use a horizontal pipe attached to two out of frame vertical pipes held by crew members. The model could not do it as she did not have the strength and I believe she found it painful to ty to hook her feet under the pipe. Trying to hook the pipe behind her knees did not seem to work either. The remnants of that pipe set-up are still here.

I've played with the idea of having a ski rope fed thru a pulley at the bottom of a pit. But I never really thought about how much pressure it would really take to drag someone under against the resistance of a good, thick bog. I can see that being something most peoples' ankles and/or knees weren't up to.

The bogs in Moonstone and Hot Lead and Cold Feet certainly look thick, but the way they flow closed over descending body parts gives lie to that. I really think that both of those had some form of elevator platform in a pit that was largely water. Certainly the sort of thing one can pull off with a soundstage and a budget.

Still, I really do want to see a scene one day where the model is honestly, genuinely trying NOT to sink, but goes under regardless. All we need is a pit of something that's really quite thick, but is less dense than water. And is affordable, non-toxic, and environmentally friendly. Chemists and inventors, GO!

[Fred588]

At one of the first shoots by anothe producer using Studio 588, there was an attempt to use a horizontal pipe attached to two out of frame vertical pipes held by crew members. The model could not do it as she did not have the strength and I believe she found it painful to ty to hook her feet under the pipe. Trying to hook the pipe behind her knees did not seem to work either. The remnants of that pipe set-up are still here.

I've played with the idea of having a ski rope fed thru a pulley at the bottom of a pit. But I never really thought about how much pressure it would really take to drag someone under against the resistance of a good, thick bog. I can see that being something most peoples' ankles and/or knees weren't up to.

The bogs in Moonstone and Hot Lead and Cold Feet certainly look thick, but the way they flow closed over descending body parts gives lie to that. I really think that both of those had some form of elevator platform in a pit that was largely water. Certainly the sort of thing one can pull off with a soundstage and a budget.

Still, I really do want to see a scene one day where the model is honestly, genuinely trying NOT to sink, but goes under regardless. All we need is a pit of something that's really quite thick, but is less dense than water. And is affordable, non-toxic, and environmentally friendly. Chemists and inventors, GO!

I think if an actress were really trying, but failing, to stay above the surface then she would go under at about the same time as she was too exhausted to struggle anymore. That would put her in genuine danger of reflexively inhaling the substance. That would be followed by a serious and possibly fatal choking episode. A scene that LOOKS that way may be possible but for it to BE that way would be way too dangerous. I have seen a movie in which a trained lifeguard intentionally put himself in that situation for the purpose of learning how people actually behaved in that situation. I've also talked to the lifeguard who did it. I consider him to be a well-intensioned fool.

[YerK]

Interesting. I guess that I tried so hard to make sure I wasn't being critical that what I was trying to say got lost. At least, that's the only thing I can garner from the resulting conversation.

This post wasn't about slow sinking, it was about abrupt endings.

And to those who said I needed to try it before I could complain...
A> I'm not complaining, I'm expressing an opinion
B> How do you know I haven't?
C> Really? What, I can't have a preference? You never disliked food from a restaurant despite never having prepared it yourself? You never disliked a book despite never having written one yourself? You never dislike a politician despite never having held office yourself? Get over it. I have an opinion, and an anus, and neither stinks any more than yours.

Now, back to the plunge, this has nothing to do with buoyancy, or thickness, or new performers. Since it happens to be my most recent purchase, I'll use QS: Breaking New Ground from MPV as an example. 10 submersions, either in peat or floating cork, by performers ranging from sexy veteran to newcomer. And in each of these scenes, the end is an abrupt plunge. This is a choice being made by someone, not a concession to reality.

That being said, I don't want to give the opinion that I'm remotely unhappy with my purchase. I love it, and have already watched it through twice in as many days. It's excellent work.

Neither do I want anyone to infer that I'm being critical of MPV. They have, in the past, done excellent slow submersions, some with the same performers in Breaking New Ground. And other producers here have climbed on the "abrupt plunge" bandwagon.

All I am trying to do here is offer a piece of feedback.

I think I may have lead a charge against you needlessly. (Sorry for that!) It was the Subject of the post that sounded like an attack, and it colored my initial read of your post. Your English is good enough I couldn't tell you weren't a native speaker, so I thought you were being sarcastic.

[Nessie]

I have not ever met the mudpit where I would sink all the way under if there was nothing at all to grab.

I agree with Fred that were it truly so, it would be unsafe for the model. Anyway, it was already a great test of my persuasive powers to get my only model to step into a mudpit that was over her head for depth even though I knew from personal experience that there was no way she would disappear involuntarily.

If I thought there was even a 1% chance that she would, I could never ask.

A comment on the idea, though...

I know what you mean. I can't be fooled either.

Nessie

[klib21]

To be frank its not very practical. At one of the first shoots by anothe producer using Studio 588, there was an attempt to use a horizontal pipe attached to two out of frame vertical pipes held by crew members. The model could not do it as she did not have the strength and I believe she found it painful to ty to hook her feet under the pipe. Trying to hook the pipe behind her knees did not seem to work either. The remnants of that pipe set-up are still here.

Doing a slow submersion is not difficult at all and many, many slow ones have been done over the years by several methods. Slow is, of course, a relative term, but there have been many times I wondered if an actress would get all the way under before she had to come up for breath.

Despite this, I believe my idea still stands, but instead as a simple aid for submersion. What if a model were to use this solid fixture only when she/he were about to go under completely? They could grasp the bar and simply tilt their head back without having to worry about floating back up. I suppose what I mean is to use the bar as an anchor for submersion and not as a thing to force their entire body down with.

[Fred588]

To be frank its not very practical. At one of the first shoots by anothe producer using Studio 588, there was an attempt to use a horizontal pipe attached to two out of frame vertical pipes held by crew members. The model could not do it as she did not have the strength and I believe she found it painful to ty to hook her feet under the pipe. Trying to hook the pipe behind her knees did not seem to work either. The remnants of that pipe set-up are still here.

Doing a slow submersion is not difficult at all and many, many slow ones have been done over the years by several methods. Slow is, of course, a relative term, but there have been many times I wondered if an actress would get all the way under before she had to come up for breath.

Despite this, I believe my idea still stands, but instead as a simple aid for submersion. What if a model were to use this solid fixture only when she/he were about to go under completely? They could grasp the bar and simply tilt their head back without having to worry about floating back up. I suppose what I mean is to use the bar as an anchor for submersion and not as a thing to force their entire body down with.

There is actually no need for a solid object like this, at least in a clay pit. Because the clay tends to be naturally thicker at the bottom, all the actress needs to do is dig her feet into that. because its not a solid object it does not hurt. On many occasions by using this technique we have achieved the so-called "holy grail" of the vertical, two-hands in the air submergence. We have even achieved quite a few submergences with the actress's arms tied to an overhead rope.

[rickyj]

I agree with Chimerix, that the infamous Moonstone episode must have been using some sort of contraption. It just looked too perfectly timed to be real. Like he said, if the budget was there, I;m sure producers could make these kind of pully/elevator systems (however crude) to simulate it.
One scene I do recall that is similar to what this guy is looking for is in an old PRP productions, I forgot which DVD it was, but they had to put three egyptian models in one at a time with their hands bound(I remember Christine was one and Puss(I think) another and maybe Pamela was #3) and they basically jumped in, then stood perfectly still and went down in Moonstone-fashion, with no struggling or obvious "pulling myself down" of any kind. I'm not quite sure how it was pulled off, the pit constitution must have been just right. It was probably one of those most realistic scenes I've ever seen in terms of this sort of so-called "holy grail", but everyone likes different stuff anyways so no one is going to have the exact same holg grail.

[Robert]

I agree with Chimerix, that the infamous Moonstone episode must have been using some sort of contraption. It just looked too perfectly timed to be real. Like he said, if the budget was there, I;m sure producers could make these kind of pully/elevator systems (however crude) to simulate it.
One scene I do recall that is similar to what this guy is looking for is in an old PRP productions, I forgot which DVD it was, but they had to put three egyptian models in one at a time with their hands bound(I remember Christine was one and Puss(I think) another and maybe Pamela was #3) and they basically jumped in, then stood perfectly still and went down in Moonstone-fashion, with no struggling or obvious "pulling myself down" of any kind. I'm not quite sure how it was pulled off, the pit constitution must have been just right. It was probably one of those most realistic scenes I've ever seen in terms of this sort of so-called "holy grail", but everyone likes different stuff anyways so no one is going to have the exact same holg grail.

This was shot at 588's clay and peat pit back in 2004. Kristine and Puss sank in peat and clay respectively while Pam was hogtied and placed at the pond's edge and a poisonous snake swam toward her and bit her in the face. This was a combination of very good conditions in each pit and the skill of the models.

Robert