Quicksand Fans

Despite the fact that I have too much going on in my personal life I occasionally go back and re-read some great threads from the past in this group and another one. Some very interesting text has been about every conceivable aspect of qs media creation from our producers. Most of that comes after the fact so I thought I'd go ahead and encourage all of us to speak up BEFORE the traditional outdoor shooting season begins for the people who create what most of us like to see. From personal experience I know that the producers here want to know what we want and will make an effort to meet that need where they are able. Speak up. Say what you will. What do you like? Want? Prefer? Hate? Performers? Wardrobe? Scene types? You name it. All I ask is that I think we would be best served by focusing the discussion on scenes themselves just so we don't wander off topic.

One of the things I would ask is to always be vigilant about what I call "preserving the magic". This is my fantasy on the screen and I don't want it interfered with. I can tolerate some stuff but keeping the tarps, plumbing, cords, shadows, hoses, etc to a minimum has become even more important to me. Careful execution by the performer is important to this as well. Some need coaching and some are just naturally better than others but they are doing most of the "selling" of the scene. While I will confess to a certain fascination with the technical aspects of what is going on I would be happier not ever hearing about depths, substances, rigs, etc. I really want to believe that what I'm seeing is what is actually happening as much as that is possible. One recent episode that I have to reference was an excellent scene that was skillfully executed at every level. I was as completely invested in it as I have been in any scene in a long time only to have an ending that destroyed the magic. It left me literally pounding on the desk and cursing out loud. I will never understand why some work so very hard to create and convince the audience of authenticity only to intentionally blow it at the end in the interest of novelty. Don't actively work to undermine your own credibility. 'Nuff said on that.

Fresh faces are important but not everything. It's good to keep the lineup from getting stale by rotating new performers and even bringing back some old ones. There are also some out there that I could watch forever. Everyone is going to have personal favorites and there are those that are also like nails on a chalkboard. There are others but I'll limit to two examples - Stephani from Studio 588 is one I could watch endlessly. Jane from TSM is another. I can not imagine a reason for either of them to stop doing what they are doing beyond their personal reasons. You could produce an entire DVD with nothing but them and I would be happy with that. Fetish models have very short lives but it might be interesting to hear about who should return and why.

Watch your editing - I've seen this from more than one producer on more than one occasion where they didn't look at their final edit and it's out of sequence, got deleted bits in it, crew in the background, all kinds of stuff. I used to point it out but gave up.

I generally but not always have a preference for fit ladies with large breasts. I don't care if they are cosmetically enhanced because I ain't getting to play with them. That's just a general preference, not a lock. I've been in love with Lucy, Mina, Brinke, and the aforementioned Jane and they don't fit that description. I'll say it now for sure that full figured is not bad and sometimes great but fat is out. If the area between her hips and her chest gets lost then she isn't going to work for me. There. I said it. It's not polite. It's not politically correct. But it's commercial and it's what I like in my fantasy. Nobody is hiring beanpole fifty something guys to be male strippers either.

I know personally how difficult this is to achieve but a bit more ethnic diversity might be nice. Not trying to be politically correct at all. Just put it on the wish list. I've often joked about wanting lesbian triplets - one black, one six foot redhead, one an asian/latina mix. And their mother.

Wardrobe - Generally speaking the less the better for me but I've become more interested in this and it has it's place. The one thing that would be nice to avoid is the "Raiders of the Lost Closet" look.

Producers - I'd suggest you just sit back and read what I hope will be interesting as much as possible. We're on your side.

Anybody else? Here is your chance to make yourself heard before the shooting starts.

I was actually thinking of making a similar thread, though with more of a focus on how producers can "advance" how quicksand videos are made.

The biggest trend I'd like to see producers attempt to move away from is the cookie-cutter screenplay, consisting of "walk around, enter quicksand, submerge". This is mostly because, I imagine, this is the most straightforward scene to shoot (considering time constraints, limited acting ability, etc.), but on the producers' side, less time editing footage to create something that stands out.

For a while, most scenes were single-pit scenes, though we've some attempts made to add more pits in one scene. I've made mention of Fred's "grand tour" of all his pits in one video, which is quite intense but also different from the norm.

Then there have been some videos which try to tell a story. MPV's "Quicksand Day" series is a bold step in that direction.

But seriously, I've seen hundreds of scenes, and they've long started to look the same. Even buying a scene with my favourite pit and favourite actor, the style and format pretty much run together and it becomes a generic viewing experience. It's becoming too predictable - and at this rate, this may be the last season why I do buy scenes from our producers. In writing, "plop and sink" is something I'd like to see authors move away from. For video, the "plop and sink" is ideally what's suited for the format, but it doesn't have to be a superficial setting. Jim Weather's work is particular admirable in this sense because all of his scenes have an overarching plot, developed characters with clear motives, and good scripting and editing.

I'd like to challenge producers to create something that is out of the norm. Yes, it may take a bit of work, a bit more editing, but the product will be something that people will buy. Here are some things on my mind:

- Break the sequence of the video. Start in the middle, with the model already in the quicksand and trying to get out.
- Use sound, music and voiceovers to add to the scene.
- Be bolder with coming up with vignettes and scenarios. The vast majority of scenes involve a model, in a certain costume, stepping into a chosen pit. There's literally no variety. Stories don't have to be complex, but with good editing, they can be told well. Ironically, I'd like to see less focus on quicksand. I'm not saying *less* quicksand; rather, make something happen *during* the quicksand that drives the scenario further. On that note, it'd be interesting to see the conclusion of the video *after* the quicksand - it doesn't have to end with the submersion/escape.
- Make scenes more unique. Use the environment and props more effectively. A challenge with films, and even small projects like YouTube creators do, is to make a particular scene stand out. There are generic "fight" scenes, and generic "shooting" scenes, but the ones that stand out use things in ways that haven't been done before.
- More of a cinematic style approach: shorter cuts to build narrative (seriously, enough with the walking around aimlessly), make scenes more dramatic by breaking up the sinking sequence and focus on different elements of the struggle. Most scenes produced are start-to-finish long shots, with close-up of the struggle and submersion. In a sense, the scene is too "complete".

I know there's always a reason for limitations (time, availability, budget, technology, etc.). I'm not asking for an overhaul of filming, but rather that producers be more creative with what they have. We have more models, better environments and more pits to work with, but we're still stuck on using the same scripting and editing template.

I absolutely could not agree more with your initial point, which is please make me believe what I'm watching. Going off of what you said, anything that fails to allow me to suspend my disbelief pretty much kills it for me. And unfortunately, personally, that includes every type of quicksand substance that's too watery. First and foremost, this includes the Hollywood Quicksand; there is literally not a single scene involving HWQS that any producer has produced or ever will produce that I would ever bother watching, even for free. I realize this is personal taste here, but I simply do not understand how anyone could ever prefer a classic quicksand struggle/sink scene taking place in essentially water with cork floating on top, versus the exact same scene, only taking place is deep, thick mud.

In addition to the pit, the model's acting does just as much, if not more so, to help the viewer suspend their disbelief. An example I can think of is Kristine's White Bra & Pantie scene. That. Scene. Was. Perfect. Right up until the very end. She spends the whole time sinking super slowly (which was awesome, rather than just plopping in immediately up to her waist/chest, which is what kills it for me in most scenes these days), but then as she's sinking under, about to die, she just sounds sort of... mildly annoyed, rather than terrified. As a contrast, I call upon Mina's (or Lucy's, I honestly don't remember, it's been awhile) Safari Scene. It's short, and quite old, but to this day is still absolutely amazing. She steps in, only starts sinking to her ankles, but immediately makes the viewer believe she is really and totally trapped from that point on. Following that, her sink is slow and gradual, as it should be. She doesn't wade forward and then fall off of what is clearly a ledge under the mud. Also, her screams of terror really make me believe she truly is scared for her life, even at only thigh depth. I'm just saying, in scenes where the actress is supposed to be legitimately frightened of sinking under, it's best to really sell that. Lines like "I'm gonna die here, this sucks so bad," delivered half-heartedly can kill an otherwise great scene for me.

I also agree with Duncan's "less is more" sentiment, as it pertains to clothing. Don't need Elaborate costumes. That also is something that often takes me out of the scene.

Ah, that kind of shooting... I thought perhaps you were really angry about something and was a bit worried for a moment! Sincerely. LOL

bfc796 wrote:Ah, that kind of shooting... I thought perhaps you were really angry about something and was a bit worried for a moment! Sincerely. LOL

Corrected that. It was sort of...wrong.

I won't go on too long, as everyone so far has hit upon the main points - the most important point being "to not destroy the magic" of a scene. Personally, I myself am happy with all of the pits and their look, and as long as the actresses play it as if they believe it, I'm more than willing to go along for the ride, as long as no obvious pipes, mats, liners or square edges appear, I'm cool with it.

As for story lines, getting past the plop and sink, etc, for me, that's all matters of personal preference. I love a straight forward sink as much as one with a great storyline with compelling characters. Since doing only one thing or the other will never please everyone, variety remains the spice of life.... a good collection of scenes from simple to complex will hit the high points with most everyone, I think. In other words, what you've been doing so well up to now.

I would continue to experiment with camera angles, too... the eye level shots are fantastic, as are the ones from above... although tighter shots of the latter would really rock....

Also, any thoughts of a sink from the eyes of the victim? We could use more of those...

Anyway, those are just my random thoughts....

I like Ace's reference to the vintage MPV material. I recall Mina's "casual" scene, where she basically sinks continuously from start to end and never seems like she's faking the experience. I find, often, the melodramatic scenes today aren't all that dramatic, and tend to be more like "non-erotic" scenes.

One possibility for this is that there seems to be an increase in solo scenes, which places a lot of pressure on the model to present an entertaining and convincing performance. Some models are better at this than others. Solo scenes are the most generic kind of scene for me. They're not bad, most of the time, but there's so many of them that's really just x model in y bog. There was a point where I'd immediately buy a Paris Kennedy video or a Stefani Jaymes video. Now, I'm beginning to forget who's who and which scene they're in. I recently bought several clips and, honestly, clicked on three or four parts, watched perhaps a total of one minute, and didn't need to watch the rest. They seem so identical after watching so many - and in the case of Studio588, which does re-use scripts, more literally so.

In contrast, Jim Weather's recent shoot included more intricate - but not necessarily more difficult - plot lines that create a better frame from which the viewer can experience the scene. There's always something happening that drives the scene forward instead of having the model "float" around in a scene until the submersion is done.

This is more blatant in two-person scenes, when one model literally stands at the edge, watches and does nothing while the other sinks and struggles. The quicksand-orientated watcher will probably not mind much, but as a scene, it's rather awkward. In most other multi-actor scenes, everyone is doing *something* so that an actor isn't left alone to carry the scene.

Jim Weather's O-Girl series does this well, with the heroines being trapped and taunted as they sink, forcing them to split their attention between helplessly sinking and responding to the villains, adding to the tension and drama. Speaking of vintage MPV, "Jewel of Doom" also did this well, with the bonus that all four characters eventually submerged. Nowadays, getting a 4-character scene is pretty much unviable for our producers, but even a two-character scene can be done with more active participation. There's no need for the models to "take turns" or "share" screen-time. Getting both models in the pit and giving them "independent" struggles and objectives (e.g. one person is going for one side of the pit, the other attempts to free her legs) adds more dynamic nature to the scene.

In short, I'd like to see melodrama return. In my opinion, it's become more of a rarity as melodramatic scenes feel more like casual sinks.

I'd like to see some men sinking! - shock horror!

I can honestly say that I have no requests nor are there any lingering wishes for anyone to fulfill.

I got it all.

Nessie

Normally I would agree that I'd like a move away from the simpler 'plop-and-sink' scenes, but there have been a few teasing references to (without getting technical/breaking the magic) making the sinking more 'actual' for the models. This is the whole game, set, and match for me. I'll take an entire season of scenes with no plot at all if they achieve uncontrolled sinking and real uncertainty. Hitting that would be like hitting the reset button on quicksand scenes and I would be more than happy to see everything else take a backseat for a while. If this could be achieved you have access to all new 'first time' scenes (even with veteran actresses), simple scenes about just asking the model to try to escape or cross the pit. The few comments about it this year have generated the most anticipation for me.