Quicksand Fans

Posted: **Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:03 pm**

Hello everyone:

I was wondering what sort of advice one can offer for someone who may consider being a new producer in this realm? Such topics could consider:
- Model release forms
- Insurance
- Attorney advice
- Camera equipment
- Money paid for model transport (what constitutes work time)
- Business licensing

Your help is appreciated as always -- thank you,

Jumpoff

Posted: **Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:00 pm**

Jumpoff_Joe wrote:Hello everyone:

I was wondering what sort of advice one can offer for someone who may consider being a new producer in this realm? Such topics could consider:
- Model release forms
- Insurance
- Attorney advice
- Camera equipment
- Money paid for model transport (what constitutes work time)
- Business licensing

Your help is appreciated as always -- thank you,

Jumpoff

There are no simple answers to these issues. Things such as legal issues, for example, generally involve state laws so onl someone in your state could really give proper advice.

As for other aspects of producing, I think these best advice is to apprentice with an established producer in at least a similar genre. I know you did this at last once but it was a while ago.

Posted: **Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:29 pm**

Fred588 wrote:
Jumpoff_Joe wrote:Hello everyone:

I was wondering what sort of advice one can offer for someone who may consider being a new producer in this realm? Such topics could consider:
- Model release forms
- Insurance
- Attorney advice
- Camera equipment
- Money paid for model transport (what constitutes work time)
- Business licensing

Your help is appreciated as always -- thank you,

Jumpoff

There are no simple answers to these issues. Things such as legal issues, for example, generally involve state laws so onl someone in your state could really give proper advice.

As for other aspects of producing, I think these best advice is to apprentice with an established producer in at least a similar genre. I know you did this at last once but it was a while ago.

Yea, Fred summed it up pretty well.

At the end of the day though, it's not about being 'legal'. It's about guts, elbow grease and a lot of cash. There's a LOT of minutia in between, but those are the basic requirements.

Posted: **Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:53 pm**

Fred and Dave pretty well nailed it. I've spent quite a bit of time with both of them as well as Kaol, Kristine and Hottrod, Pam and Robert, Chuck Lang, Nessie, a lot of people. I've watched all of them do things good and bad. Things I would never do and things I wish I had thought of myself. There's a lot to be said for an almost teenage level of fearlessness that permitted all of them to jump into doing this. If I could offer one thing that seems to be most often overlooked it would be to watch who you have with you. Choose carefully the people who will be behind and in front of the camera. Getting that wrong can cause more difficulty than anything else you have control over.

Make a list of "What do I do if...?" Always have a "Plan B" in your pocket right next to the extra money you will almost inevitably need. You can't always prevent bad days but you better be ready to deal with them when they arise. Because they will.

Hope it works out for you.

Posted: **Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:11 am**

Something to also keep in mind is to always have a handy supply of spare camera batteries fully charged to replace the ones that die, otherwise you would waste valuable shooting time waiting to recharge it, if you are able to recharge it at the location you are at. Imagine being on location in the back country, and you have to stop the shooting to go back to town to recharge the battery because that is the only one you have, and there is no battery charger in the truck! :shock:

Posted: **Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:39 am**

Duncan Edwards wrote:...Hope it works out for you.

And I did mean to say that I'm open to tutoring. I won't be doing this forever, and if nothing else, it's a great way to pitch Camp MPV as a rental.

Boggy Man wrote:Something to also keep in mind is to always have a handy supply of spare camera batteries fully charged to replace the ones that die, otherwise you would waste valuable shooting time waiting to recharge it, if you are able to recharge it at the location you are at. Imagine being on location in the back country, and you have to stop the shooting to go back to town to recharge the battery because that is the only one you have, and there is no battery charger in the truck!

I have never done this, but have had many dreams about it, and similar scenarios.

Posted: **Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:38 am**

We are pretty new at producing videos in comparison to big boys on this forum but were going to sit down here and make up a few pointers that we wish we would have been told when we started out.

1.) Invest in good camera gear. At least one dslr that does video and a secondary Handy cam that does at least 1080p. Noob and I shoot with a cannon 7d and a basic Cannon handy cam. You will also need a few tripods if you plan on shooting by yourself. A second person does help but its not always necessary and will save you $$.

2.) Start practicing with your gear. You need to know how to shoot properly and edit your material afterwords and having your camera out of focus at the perfect moment is the worst. You need to be able to change your settings on the fly to quickly to adjust to the moment. If you find yourself stuck, there are lots of youtube material out there to help you.

3.) Find a location. Both Fred and Dave both have fantastic mud pits available for rent that already have accommodation built in. Shooting in the woods or in public areas will save money, but in the long run you may actually lose money because you can shoot less material per day. Also having a shower on hand is a life saver and a money maker

4.) Find your models. This may be hard if you have zero portfolio work. This is also why you should practice and aim to build some sort of portfolio: credibility. Model mayhem is the best place to look. UMD and quicksandfans sites have probably less than a 0.5% female to male ratio. Also remember to act professional. Most of these girls are trying to build some sort of career and are not shooting with you to satisfy your fetish. If you want this to be a job make sure you act like its one. If a model feels safe, has fun, and is paid well, she will more than likely refer one of her friends and be glad to do it again.

5.) Once you have enough material you need to sit down and start editing. You are going to need a good computer and some editing software. There are many opinions and avenues for help out there. Please don't ruin your hard work that you paid good $$ for, by having shitty editing. A good model will also appreciate good editing skills for their portfolio.

6.) Find a platform to release your videos on. We use umd.net's video service because it is easy to use, has a various amount of free advertising options, and is backed by the biggest messy community on the web. There many other options out there that might work for you, however, we really like this one.

7.) Don't spend your money. Invest it back into better equipment, more models and better advertising. Pay yourself last! It wont be much, but your probably aren't doing this for the money.

If you do these things there's a pretty good chance your gonna have a lot of fun making your wildest dreams come true, get some new skills and maybe make a few bucks here and there

This next part should help explain how much money is needed to get started. These numbers are based roughly on our experiences for MudBunny Studios. Sure you could cut out a couple things here and there, but all in all, I strongly believe that this is a good starting point.

Budget needed

$1200 - Primary Camera and lenses 7d and a second nice lens.

$600 - Secondary handy cam Cannon G20.

$300 - Miscellaneous camera gear like tripods lens caps and bag.

$120 - $800 - Editing software for your footage. We use sony vegas (its easy).

$600 - $1600 - Model fees. For one model it's going be around 450+ a day of shooting.
You should probably plan to shoot for 3 days, that will give you enough
material to release a video every two weeks for 6 months.

$1000 -Studio fees, trust me, its worth it. It's probably going to run you around
this much for 3 days of shooting. Best money ever spent. :3

$1300 - Travel expenses. Chances are you and your model need plane tickets
and a car rental to get to these studios.

$500 - Other expenses such as: costumes, beer, food.

So after everything is said and done, it will cost you around $7000 up front to start from scratch. You will be able to shoot for 3 days with just one model and make enough material to release 1 video every two weeks for 6 months.

Lets assume you sell your videos for 12.99 each, pay 30% to your video distribution platform, and each video sells 100 copies over the next year. Your looking at around $10,000 over the course of a year. That's if your videos are of good quality and you can sell at least 100 of each.

So that's a very small profit of around 3000 a year for all your hard work, of which you will probably want to re-invest

...Buuuut afterwards you will accumulate alot more equipment, knowledge and improve production value. You may even get a few more models in on it too.

Hope this was helpful for you, good luck!! This fetish needs a few more producers !

If you didnt catch my last post with my vlog documenting my quicksand journey last summer, here it is again.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2c79tb_studio-588-vlog_redband

Remember Its an muddy up hill battle, but in the end its way worth it!!

uphill.png

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:50 pm**

TheWolverine79 wrote:... Like I said, I've never produced QS videos,..

First off, go out and get Roger Corman's brilliant autobiography "How I Made A Hundred Movies In Hollywood And Never Lost A Dime"

There have been independent films that went on to great success on 2,000 dollar budgets. That's a full 2 hour film with much more expectations than a porn film. So if a full film can be made that cheap, than you should be able to make a 10 to 20 min clip for next to nothing.

here's the thing. Your looking to make a porn, not an Oscar contender. Regular films can have several goals. They can be designed to make you laugh, cry, feel scared, or just plain entertain you. porn, on the other hand has one very simple goal: To present sexually explicit subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal and erotic satisfaction of the viewer.

What this means is that the script doesn't have to be WGA material, the actors don't have to be thespians, and the shots don't have to be super artistic. That's not to say your film should look like shit, but your viewers mostly likely could care less for aesthetic's. In this instance, they want to see a hot chick sink into a bog and look good doing it. That's it.

Of course, it must be sexually appealing. you do this by doing your homework. Read up on what people like in QS videos, ask questions. Find out what's most important to the vast majority. Then, figure out how to get it done within your chosen budget. I did the math on what i would require to make a QS film, and I can get it done for 500 bucks. That includes getting it out to people. Let me explain.

First, I need a pit. Look, it's true, the nicer the pit, the better it looks. But it's also more expensive. With some creativity and good camera work and acting, you can create a good pit. Look at Pamela Roses "Quicksand date" vids. They dig a hole on a beach and dress it up and the girl pretends to sink in it. What sells that scene is sexy acting by the actress. All you need is a shovel and a place to dig. Make sure everything is safe, that's a must. Once you have this, you have your pit and it cost you nothing more than a shovel and some digging.

Next you need an actress/model. You can get a professional, but again, they cost money, and not all will want to work with you if your just starting out for lack of a portfolio. Fortunately, there are other ways to find models for porn readily available. There are websites and personals for this. You can find a good looking woman who like you is just starting out and wants to make a few bucks and build a portfolio. Use common sense, check her out, meet with her, make sure she understands what you want and let her know what it will be like. She must feel safe and so should you. Above all, make sure she can act and be as sexy as you need her to be for the particular video. Have a contract drawn up and notarized and you're good to go. The price you negotiate is up to you two. I know for a fact I can get a model for a day for 100 bucks.

Next, you need a Camera. I can shoot a decent porn on a 200 dollar HD camera with a built in mic. Getting a mic that isn't omni-directional is the best choice. To be honest though, if I really wanted to be cheap, I could shoot the video on my Iphone. Watch a film "To Jennifer". It was shot entirely on an Iphone. Today's tech ain't no joke in the hands of a decent camera person.

Next, some decent editing software will be needed. There are great free editing software's out there like Movie maker that can get the job done nicely. Most youtubers use it, and a lot of their stuff looks professional as hell. But if ya want to spend a few bucks you can get a decent one for 100 bucks.

Finally, you need to be able to get the product to the customers. For 49.99 you can purchase a domain for 2 years and open your own site. You can feature your videos there and offer whatever method you want for people to purchase them. Get yourself a Merchant account. You'll pay a service a monthly fee to process all transactions safely which cost around 35 bucks.

So let's take stock:

Sand pit: Free

Model: $100

Camera: $200 bucks

Editing software: Free (Let's say I use Movie maker)

website: $49.99

merchant account: $35

Grand total: $385. Oh, 10 bucks to get the contract notarized. so $395 bucks. Congrats you just made a QS porn!

Now of course there is advertising and such, but it's free to advertise within the community, so that's no issue.

Bare in mind, the above is just a bare bones approach, I'm not saying you have to follow it. if you have more money, you can spring for more things, but my point is that it can be done. it will take a lot of work, attention to detail, a lot of creativity, and oodles of patience.

As long as the pit look's convincing and the actress can sell it and look good doing it, you should end up with a product that will have an audience. Look, many on here are happy looking at youtube vids of regular people stuck in mud, no production values. Give them what they want, which is a good sink, and you have customers.

Many may disagree with me, which is fine. I'm not here to debate film techniques or which method is best. I'm here to tell you how to do it CHEAP. Period. You want to do it, stop trying to be Spielberg and ...

...Just get the damn thing made. Period.

Suffice it to say you left out a few details. One thing you got right is Roger Corman's book. It's great.

Maybe you can shoot a qs video for $400 but don't expect anyone to pay for it. John Dondero shot that great little single scene with Krystal for nothing and that's what he made off of it. Nothing. And it was only a single scene. He was mind blowingly lucky in that he not only lived on top of a great location but had one of the most naturally gifted qs performers as his gf for a brief period. I doubt the stars will align in such fashion for many others. So on to reality...

Anyone will probably have to travel to a location. People like to eat and shower and things like that so you left out the usual travel expenses. Cheapest full qs video I know of was MPV Young Lady Deep Mud and it was an order of magnitude more expensive than your bottom line. Even then there was benefit from free help, loaner hardware, and natural location. This illustrates the flaw in your cost comparison of a full length film and a 20 min clip that can be made for "next to nothing." That might work if you only want to make one 20 min clip like John Dondero did. Otherwise you're going to have to make a lot of them to spread out your startup costs. Unless that is you find a way to sell that 20 min clip for a thousand bucks a shot to at least several people.

A $100 model? Again, maybe for one scene. Make her work all day for three days so you can have enough material to start with and I'll be she's a bit put off by that amount. Odds are she spent that much on gas to get to you. And who is providing the wardrobe? Oh, she's not wearing anything? She's gonna want more money. I promise.

Maybe you can get a reliable merchant account for $35 but they are going to take a bite of every transaction. You could go to Clips4sale or something similar but again there goes forty percent of everything right off the top. Do your own site and a domain is the least of your expenses. Storage and bandwidth come at a price too. You could let Dave sell it on Club MPV but he doesn't work for free either.

By now I'm sure I've made my point. Maybe you can shoot one scene for $400.00 but you'll have a difficult time getting your money back. If you want to spread out your startup costs and eventually see a profit so you can keep making more then you better plan on a bigger investment. The numbers that MudBunny put out there were very realistic and compare favorably with the experience I've had. Let me offer one more thing, probably the biggest thing, that you overlooked. Competition. If you want to sell something then it's gonna have to be pretty good and pretty good costs a bit. MudBunny hit it right the first time by going to and paying to use a prepared location with some experience behind it. It's going to look like what she wants and produces a predictable result. Now she can compete with all of the stuff that has come out of the "competition" between all of the producers over the years. That's the benefit to the steady improvement that MPV, Studio 588, DiDvP, Pam and Robert, Quicksandgirls, and others have brought over the years. The downside is that the entry level for a competitive video that has a chance of making money has gone way up. Dave and Fred knocked their respective brains out creating studios to work with for a reason. Have you seen or listened to a video produced by some of these people lately? That level of technical perfection has come at a cost. You don't have to do that if you want to have fun but if you want to operate at a profit you better get close after a few tries.

I don't want to discourage anyone but I don't want to create any unreasonable expectation either. Best of luck to anyone who tries.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:03 pm**

TheWolverine79 wrote:“Remember the proverb of Solomon: "He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand; but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.”
― P.T. Barnum

Barnum could sell a moldy ham sandwich to someone and the customer would go away thrilled.

What Barnum, Corman, and Kaufman all knew was that it's all in the pitch. The Krystal scene should have made a ton of dough. it didn't because of bad marketing. You can tell me this and that, but in the end, it made no money, which means it wasn't marketed right. Period.

"Give 'em what they want." that's the business motto. Give them a good sink scene with a pretty girl and pitch it to them right and you WILL have customers.

My method is not designed to sustain, but to get you started, of course it won't work as a sustainable business model. Other expenses will come, but it will get the ball rolling. Also what i presented is just an example of how you can get the job done, not a rule.

I can higher a local model for 100 bucks for a shoot, per day at about 3 hours a pop, which is all you'll need. You ain't trying to make an art film. I can walk into any strip club and walk out with a model willing to work. I'm not saying this is professional, but it gets the job done. As for bandwidth, you'll have plenty for the first few clips. Yeah merchants take their share, but if you look around you can get a good interest ratio.

So this begs the question - What are you waiting for?

Kaol's clips were far from dave and Fred's quality, but they sold. Again, what i presented was just an example. I just wanted to show it can be done cheap.

You are confusing "sold" with making a profit. I was with Kaol on one of his shoots and if he told me he made profit on his work I still wouldn't believe it. It's also one reason why you don't see Kaol doing it any longer. For most involved in this it's an expensive hobby for which they are grateful to break even. I know of only two producers who don't have day jobs or other means of support and one of them only puts his toe in the quicksand side of things.

Posted: **Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:59 pm**

Look friend, anybody knows how to operate at a loss. That's not difficult at all. This thread is about "Tips for New Producers..." and the real "tip" is how not to operate at a loss, which unless he has some cash he can throw away, is the useful thing to learn. Been there and done it. Watched several folks better than me do it in this genre up close and personal. I guess at this point any potential "new producer" can take what they want from this.

Quicksand Fans

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