Not deep enough (how do I get past the buoyancy point?)

[CreamyClayK]

Hi everyone. today I had my first real sinking experience. because mud sadly seems very hard to find in the northeast Ohio area I've never been deeper than my knees but today I found some mud that I couldn't even feel the bottom of. the issue is, I wasn't even up to my chest in it. I've been on these forums for a while and I've read pretty much all the advice about how to sink past the buoyancy point, but I somehow couldn't manage it. I sank up to my waist fine, but as soon as the mud went over my butt it was really hard to get any further. I got deep enough that the mud was a couple inches below my breasts, but I couldn't get any deeper. I tried pulling myself down but all that did was tire me out. I tried twisting my body, moving my legs frantically, and even jumping in to the mud from a little ledge about 4 feet above it, but nothing worked.

I'm not sure what I was doing wrong or what I could be doing better. I don't know if any of you have ever had something like this happen but it felt like my butt was keeping me afloat somehow? maybe that's just where the buoyancy point is. The mud was a mixture of fine sandy dirt and clay, so I think the clay part made it harder to sink? Either way I would really appreciate advice soon, because the spot was right along the lake and if it rains at all then it could get eroded away before I can go back (and hopefully go deeper )

[Sinkman61]

Your buoyancy point is based more on the type of mud that you’re sinking in than anything that you might be doing wrong. There’s different types of mud, each with their own buoyancy point. That’s because ultimately, your buoyancy point depends on how sticky the mud is and how much suction that mud can create to hold you in it’s grasp. Organic (mud that full of decaying plant material tends to have a higher buoyancy point and isn’t nearly as sticky, also referred to as “peat”) mud can be hard to sink down deep in simply because it’s just not sticky enough to hold you down into it. It develops far less suction as a result. Thus, it has the highest buoyancy point. You’re going to have a hard time sinking down into such mud. You literally have to shove your arms as deep into the mud as you can and pull yourself down. And as soon as you stop, you’ll pop right back up. On the other end of the spectrum is tidal mud. That’s got the lowest buoyancy point. That’s because it’s the stickiest type of mud. Thus, it creates the most amount of suction. Tidal mud has practically no buoyancy point whatsoever. In other words, it’s the only mud where you can literally sink like that shown in Hollywood movies...right on beneath the surface where you’re going to drown or asphyxiate. But that’s going to be an incredibly slow process. While the buoyancy point is still there, it has virtually no effect whatsoever on your ability to sink down into the mud. Your body weighs just slightly less than the material that you’re sinking into. Thus, once you displace an equal amount of material to your body’s weight, you stop sinking. In tidal mud that’s typically about chest deep. At best, that gives you about 60 pounds of upward lift if you were beneath the surface. But in tidal mud, that’s easily offset by the downward pull of the suction. That can be as much as the weight of a midsized car, or over 3000 pounds. So your body’s buoyancy simply has no effect whatsoever. As long as you keep moving around to the point that your feet keep getting shoved further down into the mud, you’ll keep sinking. You’ll stop sinking because at some point, typically when the mud is nearly touching your ears, because it’s become nearly impossible to keep moving anymore. Keep in mind, you can sink beneath the surface of such mud. And you WON’T POP RIGHT BACK UP. So you better make sure you can get yourself back to the surface before you starve yourself of oxygen. This is where having a long breathing tube comes in handy. I’ve seen videos where guys will wear a gas mask with a filter that’s attached to the end of a hose. That’s probably the best setup because it keeps the mud away from your nose and eyes as well. But you need to be sure that the other end of the hose is kept above any water or mud as well. And you certainly don’t want some critter entering into your hose while you’re beneath the surface. I seldom sink beneath the surface. I typically stop my sinking when my upward turned face is even or slightly below the surface, but not completely covered over. Call it my love of oxygen that exceeds my love of sinking. Once I’m that deep, I’ll stay there for at least an hour, sometimes even more while I enjoy the feeling of the mud against my skin. I find that feeling to be incredible...unlike anything else there is. I also enjoy the pressure that’s squeezing every part of my body. It’s like being massaged everywhere at once. It’s an intense, highly erotic feeling that can’t be simulated by any other means.

[gamwam]

suggest you message boggyman, he can tell you much about the buoyancy issues of different types of mud as he is a true deep sinker who submerges completely while standing vertically .. ive always found that i can relatively easily sink vertically under in organic peat type mud,. but i can barely manage to yank my shoulders below the surface of the much denser silt/tidal/quarry muck

[Sinkman61]

suggest you message boggyman, he can tell you much about the buoyancy issues of different types of mud as he is a true deep sinker who submerges completely while standing vertically .. ive always found that i can relatively easily sink vertically under in organic peat type mud,. but i can barely manage to yank my shoulders below the surface of the much denser silt/tidal/quarry muck

I’m a true deep sinker as well. All my sinkings are also done vertically. That’s personally the best way to sink, especially when your goal is to become nearly locked deep within the mud. Of course, I have no doubt that Boggyman sinks deeper than myself. First, he tends to go completely under. While I also go completely under, my completely and his are two different experiences all together. He’s sinking in a far more organic, thinner type of mud, whereas, I’m sinking in somewhat thicker, tidal mud. As the tidal mud is much stickier, I won’t sink down to the point that I can no longer get any air. Unlike Boggyman, I’m not having to pull myself under. As long as I pump my legs I’ll continue to sink. That’s not the case with the type of mud that Boggyman often sinks in. He’s often got to work his way down into the mud and then keep himself from popping right back up to the surface. There’s no popping back up in the thicker tidal mud I enjoy sinking in. That’s because the suction’s holding power is far more exceeds than any upward force my body generates in its attempt to float on the surface. My typical sink stops when my upturned nose is level with the surface or a few inches below. I can go about 4-6 inches below the surface before the mud will completely cover me over. That’s simply because thicker mud flows far less than that of thinner. So I can sink below the surface and be looking up to the surface through a slowly closing tunnel of mud, that when collapsed, still leaves me with just enough mud free area to breathe through. Because the mud is thicker as well as stickier, I don’t want to find myself actually trapped while below the surface to the point that I have to dig myself back out. That’s really hard to do when you’re that deep, because my shoulders are at least 12-15 inches below the surface as well. Finally, second, Boggyman is taller than I am. So obviously, to the base of our nose, than his feet are going to be a bit deeper than mine. Of course, that actually gives me the advantage, because I have more areas that I can sink under than Boggyman does, as my mud needn’t be quite as deep!!!

I’ve watched nearly all of Boggyman’s video clips. I don’t care much for his fast sinking clips. However, his slow sinking clips are rather well made. He just needs a bit more variety in the clothing he uses to sink in, as he always appears to be wearing those loose Cotten shorts. He should try sinking in Lycra bike shorts.

[Boggy Man]

I have had experience in different types of mud/qs, and there are varying characteristics.

For organic mud (from moss and decayed plants), it can vary in texture, depending on what type of plant has decayed. While plants such as moss can form more coarse muck (like soggy cereal), mud from other decayed plants such as algae, grass, and water lily leaves/stems (not rhizomes) can be rather fine textured, and stickier when at certain thicknesses. In organic mud, your buoyancy point is around shoulder to neck deep, with it being neck or chin deep for really loose or water-logged mud. But, with organic mud, you can easily pull yourself under, but once under, no matter how much you move, you will not rise back up to the surface. You will stay at whatever level you pulled yourself down to, and will have to physically work or climb your way back to the surface. For finer textured organic mud, it can be rather sticky when it is at a certain thickness, and when even thicker, it becomes doughy, and separates easily from skin, turning itself inside-out as you pull yourself out of the mud. However, there can be situations where organic mud can be on top of water below. Moss can grow over top deep water, forming a mat, with live stuff on top and decayed stuff below, with water below that. But, there could be open areas where the decayed, peaty mud is exposed, and can be treacherous, because once your feet break through the bottom of that layer of mud and start dangling in the water below, there is nothing to support you, and you could sink all the way under, unless you can manage to get your body on top of the mud and solid vegetation.

Then there is the mineral-based mud (quicksand/clay/silt). Because they are mineral-based, they are heavier, and therefore you don't sink so deep before reaching your buoyancy point. It varies by material, and by water content.

For quicksand, if it is quite thick, you may only be able to sink to your waist before stopping. But, if it is loose and watery below, it may be possible for you to sink to your shoulders, especially if there is a water pocket or underground stream below. It is not really sticky, but does lock up with large movements, while small agitating movements allow for movement through the liquified sand. It can be rather difficult to sink really deep in quicksand, especially thick stuff. When you do manage to force yourself past your buoyancy point, any movements will cause you to rise back up to your buoyancy point, unless you stay at that deeper point for too long and it settles and packs around you, locking you in solid sand with a huge digging job to do that could take a very long time, perhaps even an hour or more (or you may need external help), and may have to endure painful leg cramps at the same time!

Quicksilt is more like a finer-textured quicksand. It also is quite dense, making it difficult to force yourself past your buoyancy point, which is similar to that of quicksand (waist deep when thicker to chest deep, if watery enough). It also locks up if you move hard, but flows with agitating movements. Because of its finer texture, it can be stickier than quicksand, but some kinds of quicksilt can settle quickly, and pack hard, such as in Alaskan mudflats. It is a lot of work to try and force yourself to your chest in quicksilt, and I hurt one of my shoulders years ago forcing myself shoulder deep. Just like with quicksand, if you manage to force yourself past your buoyancy point, then any movement will make you rise back up again.

Finally, there is clay, whose properties can vary, depending on water content, type of clay, and if there is any presence of electrolytes (such as salt). Clay, while dense like silt, differs in that it expands in water (for a visual idea of clay's microscopic characteristics, vermiculite is actually a clay), which then lowers its density, allowing for a deeper buoyancy point, and a bit more ease in forcing yourself deeper, unless it is not thick enough (you need some thickness to push against to force yourself deeper). But, when clay is too loose, you will bob back up to your buoyancy point when you move, or if it is loose enough, even when you don't move. When it is thicker, it gets stickier, allowing you to more easily pull yourself down deeper, or under, but it can also hold you down, just as Sinkman61 always talks about. So, you then have to work yourself back to the surface. Some types of clay, such as Bentonite, can expand a lot, with a nice thick texture even with more water content, lowering its density, and is super sticky. So, it is even easier to sink deep and pull yourself under in Bentonite than other clays. But, for other clays, if you add salt to the water, it changes the characteristics of the clay substantially! A liquid clay slurry, with salt added, becomes a sticky peanut butter! So, clay at saltwater mudflats can have a relatively low density compared to non-saltwater clays of similar thickness, allowing for a deeper sink before reaching your buoyancy point, but its stickiness could also hold you down, and struggling movements can work yourself deeper, with the stickiness holding you in. Having footwear can make matters worse, since it adds suction to pull you down more, which is really bad for extremely thick stuff. With footwear, attempting to lift one foot up may have little movement, while it forces the other foot deeper, and then trying to lift up the deeper foot has little movement but forces the other foot deeper, and so on and so on!

I hope this helps.

[cbqdbq]

Boggy man, I always figured quicksand or mud was made of soil. how does organic stuff made of moss and decayed plants become mud? does it decay into little bit pieces that act just like sand or dirt particles? or is there sand and dirt particles mixed with the moss and decayed plants so that it looks and feels and acts like soil-only? but less dense so you can sink deeper?

[Sinkman61]

Boggyman, that was an excellent write up. You’ve explained in detail the differences between the various materials that make up the mud/quicksand that we all love to sink in. I do want to expand on a couple of points. First, thicker material tends to create more suction, making it harder to get out of. This is simply a characteristic based on how well the material flows. There’s no suction in any material until you’ve sunk down into it. The suction is created when you try to lift your foot. That’s because as you try to raise your foot, you’ve lowered the pressure where it once was. Nature doesn’t vacuums, so as you pull up, material surrounding your foot, leg, etc… has to be pulled in to replace the area that had just contained your foot and other body parts. The harder it is to get that material to fill the now forming void, the greater the suction that gets created. This tends to hold you down in place. The gists here is…if the amount of force (suction) required to fill the void you form as you escape exceeds the amount of your body buoyancy’s upward pull, you won’t float up to the surface. In such mud, defeating your buoyancy is simply a matter of pushing one foot down deeper in the mud, followed by the other, because when you shift you weight from foot to foot, despite the amount of pressure the thick mud has pressing against your body, you’ll still be able to sink further down. You’ll continue to sink until you stop pushing your feet further and further down into the material, or the amount of friction between your body and the material you’re surrounded in exceeds the amount of negative suction you’re continuing to create by your feet below. Thus, heavy soled shoes tend to allow you to sink deeper, but that’s because they create more suction. In such material, your natural buoyancy point will no longer stop you from sinking. But the friction from the very tightly pressing mud and your body should be more than enough to keep you from sinking completely under. Keep in mind, getting out will likewise, be much harder, as not only is the extreme amount of suction holding you down, but so if the friction of the mud that’s tightly squeezing against you. When you’re in such mud, deliberately sinking below the surface can be very dangerous. This type of mud actually acts like the scripts in Hollywood movies where the thrashing victim sinks completely out of sight. Only the type of mud Hollywood actually has their victims in simply isn’t capable of holding anyone down, let alone have them sink out of sight.

And second, salt tends to make clay, mud, etc…FAR MORE STICKY. I’ve been in tidal mud that was so sticky that I’ve had to pry my fingers apart, because the mud acted like really thick glue. Such material tends to make your escape from it nearly (but not quite) impossible. This material will literally seal the mud up to the sides of your body, drastically increasing the amount of suction you’ll create as you attempt to escape. In such mud, expect to dig yourself back out. Working your way up is nearly impossible otherwise. And no matter how much you lean back, your feet will NEVER simply float back up to the surface. So, why is all this important? Generally, our fetish, exercise routine, sport, mud adventures, or playtime with Mother Nature (however you wish to call it) is very safe. Very few of us have ever gotten stuck to the point that a rescue agency had to be called in to save the day. And if you do, hopefully you’ve created a rock solid excuse as to why you were in the mud in the first place. Normally those that need rescuing aren’t quicksand fans at all, but just people that have never indulged themselves into the world of quicksand and thus, panic because they don’t have a clue on how to escape. Those of us that have are basically quicksand proof. We’ve taken what most people think of as dangerous and have safely turned it into our personal playtime.

[Moderator]

....Generally, our fetish, exercise routine, sport, mud adventures, or playtime with Mother Nature (however you wish to call it) is very safe.

This is patently false.

Very few of us have ever gotten stuck to the point that a rescue agency had to be called in to save the day.

Wrong again.

Seems like we need a rule against irresponsible comments like these.

[dlodoski]

....Seems like we need a rule against irresponsible comments like these.

This has been taken care of.

[Sinkman61]

Really Mr. Moderator? I guess you’ve already forgotten that I’m the person that called you all out for carelessly encouraging people to just go jump into deep mud with whatever you want without a care in the world. Then you all implied that you didn’t want to discuss safety issues. I happen to be extremely big on safety and put that as the number one item for anyone that wants to play in the mud. That still doesn’t mean that it isn’t safe. 99% of the people playing in mud will never have any issues. But there’s always that 1% that’ll get themselves into serious trouble. Trouble comes from carelessness. Failure to plan ahead. Failure to take environmental issues when planning, such as tides and the weather, such as a thunderstorm brewing overhead when you’re neck deep in mud and lightning starts popping all over. Or failure to wear proper attire when sinking, such as wearing heavy chest waders while sinking in sticky tidal mud. That’s always a big concern, especially for newbies that don’t know better. Finding out when the tide starts coming in that suddenly you’re actually stuck isn’t the fault of other sinkers. Nobody’s ever going to have the strength to pull such a person out. That’s why I have ground rules for anyone that goes sinking with me. What they do on their own is up to them. But if they’re sinking with me, they’re going to have to follow some very basic, COMMON SENSE guidelines so they don’t get stuck on an incoming tide. But that still doesn’t make this a dangerous activity. We have basic guidelines throughout our entire society that help us SAFELY get through life so we can become a burden on our children. When someone has to get rescued from the mud here in the United States, it generally becomes national news. That’s because it really doesn’t happen very often. With the thousands of people sinking throughout the country, we might hear about an incident once a year. That makes for a very safe activity. Skydiving used to be a very dangerous activity as well, despite following common sense rules. That’s because there was so much that could go wrong…far more than sinking in mud. Yet sky diving accidents happen so infrequently these days that when someone gets killed, that too makes national news. That’s because today’s parachute systems are drastically improved over those from just 20 years ago. Today’s systems automatically deploy the chute if you don’t when you cross a specific altitude. And if you’re still falling really fast, the built in computer will figure out that there’s an issue with the main chute and release it, then automatically deploy the reserve.

Regardless of the activity that you do, there’s always going to be someone that’s going to ignore common sense safety and then do something stupid. That’s not the fault of others unless such behavior is being encouraged. I’ll never encourage such activities…EVER. That’s because I want EVERYONE to live to sink yet another day. Rarely, but yes, it happens, someone will actually get stuck down in the mud despite doing everything right. Boggyman has done an exceptional job of getting into the details of the intricacies of different types of mud/quicksand and what you can expect from each. It’s wasn’t just good reading, it was also very educational. Hopefully people took the time to read what he wrote. In past postings, I’ve warned people that mud can have different types of layers and that a deep layer may very well trap you despite sinking in what was apparently a safe place with a mud that shouldn’t be capable of trapping you. Yet hidden under all that mud at a level of 3-5 feet could be sitting a layer of extremely sticky, thick clay that your might find yourself pushing your feet down into. Such a material usually requires digging yourself free of. The suction such mud can create is simply unrelenting. I’ve been just ankle deep in such mud and it still took nearly 45 minutes to get my foot free. But that’s not going to be easy when it’s 3 or more feet down below a much easier, more liquid material that’s sitting on top. So when you feel a difference in the material, you shouldn’t push yourself down into it without knowing what it is. There’s a video online done by a Arabic survivalist where he sinks down into quicksand along a coastline. It’s something he’s done numerous times before. Only this time was different because one leg pushed down into a different type of material and became firmly embedded in it. Despite trying desperately to escape, he failed. Fortunately, he happened to be carrying a very loud whistle, so he was capable of attracting the attention of others, even from a distance. So he was rescued (immediately afterwards his rescuers robbed him of nearly everything he had, including his shoes). There’s simply no such thing as an activity, INCLUDING SLEEPING, where at least a few people are going to get hurt. But given the number of people engaged in doing these activities, they’re STILL safe. Regardless of how much you try, there’s ALWAYS GOING TO BE THOSE THAT, for whatever reason, WILL ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO ROCK SOLID ADVICE. You just can’t fix stupid.

Let’s not blame the majority for the irresponsible actions of a small minority. Safety should never be ignored. My talking about safety doesn’t make an activity unsafe. Such conversations are generally aimed at younger sinkers that are still experiencing different types of mud and quicksand. I too was such a sinker, way back in the 1970’s, well before most people in here were even born. I certainly want those sinkers to be fully aware of all the possibilities so they too live to see another day. And so they don’t find themselves in need of being rescued.