AI quicksand/fetish art?

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Nessie
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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby Nessie » Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:45 am

CreamyClayK wrote:what are y'all's opinions on AI art programs being used to make quicksand and other fetish art?

i'm pretty torn on it, because on one hand we now have tools that can create a lot of art for niche fetish communities like this one (and some of that stuff is pretty damn good), but on the other hand it takes away from traditional artists who spend a lot of time on their craft

so what do y'all think?


It's been my observation that there just aren't much of us left who are drawing with real pencils and paint brushes on canvas or paper. When browsing Deviant Art, I'm amazed by how much of that art has probably never existed in any physical form.

I don't think digital art or AI takes away from my physical artwork. It might even make physical art more valuable (because things that are less common tend to increase in value while things that are common tend to lose value).

I do agree that digital art and AI serve the fetish community just super-well. And I'm pretty impressed with Viridian's results with AI. I did futz with AI a couple times but it wasn't very obedient at giving me what I wanted.

Some of my physical quicksand artwork has been scanned and uploaded here in the appropriate place.

The only digital art form I ever mastered was the Photoshop fake. That's because I have known Photoshop really, really well for, like, forever, because of how I earn a living. I haven't done a quicksand fake in years now.

Got to confess...I never called my fakes "art". I called them "how I impress quicksand guys".

Nessie

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Duncan Edwards
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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby Duncan Edwards » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:10 pm

Nessie wrote:Got to confess...I never called my fakes "art". I called them "how I impress quicksand guys".

Nessie


You nailed that one. :mrgreen:

QSFSteph1.jpg


Makes me wonder if anyone has tried an AI piece with multiple figures? Ask the computer for quicksand cheerleaders or something.
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Nessie
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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby Nessie » Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:30 am

Duncan Edwards wrote:
You nailed that one. :mrgreen:

QSFSteph1.jpg]


Whoahhh! I forgot all about that one!

Yeah, that one was for you. You sent me the pics for it. Anyway, I really liked Stefani. It was an honor to work on her image...over and over and over again.

Makes me wonder if anyone has tried an AI piece with multiple figures? Ask the computer for quicksand cheerleaders or something.


Well, I'm not going to pick up that challenge since I have little interest in getting to know AI any better but...maybe somebody here will bite.

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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby Viridian » Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:17 am

There are some unique challenges with generating multiple characters with AI. There's a reason why almost all images focus on a single character. The more focused and detailed the image, the better the AI is at working with the prompts and patterns. It can do a portrait of a face very well. It loses its fidelity when you do upper body, and especially whole body. It struggles with multiple characters and especially in long shot / out of focus scenes.

By circumstance, AI can be good at hitting the right notes for QS images because our work tends to only use upper body (or just head shots), so we can get away with more detailed generations. However, it struggles a lot with multi characters. AI doesn't distinguish between characters A, B, C, etc. like a human can, so it tends to create clones, and as the scene becomes bigger, each character loses quality and distinctiveness.

This is what you get when you put in "cheerleader team in quicksand", the way Duncan put it.
cheerleader team in quicksand.png

It's not a simple matter of typing in a line and getting amazing results. You don't simply ask the computer to make you that scene.

Here's the same prompt combined with the other prompts and tags I've been using to get my textures and setting.
cheer_team.png

Suffice to say, while the overall "artwork" is very nice, the lack of detail is appalling. It's certainly no Acidtester cheerleader bus crash drawing. It's impossible to decide how deep each individual character sinks, what they are doing, their expressions, etc. The AI just lops them into the same kind of thing. Cheerleaders gonna cheer, teams gonna team. That's probably how it reads the prompt. And while it does lend well to the imagination, the lack of care and detail make it grating to look at.

So we have to change the approach. Making multi-character scenes in good detail means creating each individual character, then splicing the images together and running it back through the AI.

As a benchmark, here's a solo cheerleader.
cheer1.png

The solo one is relatively easy after developing my method and prompts. I can do dozens of these with almost no tweaks. This doesn't make them easy to make for someone who doesn't know how to work with AI, but this is a baseline standard.

cheer2.png

With 2 cheerleaders, the difficulty became exponentially harder. I generated two individual characters with defined characteristics (notably hair colour) and spliced them together in Photoshop, then ran it through the AI again. Things begin to get frustrating as the AI doesn't recognise that there are necessarily two different characters in the scene. I had to do more inpainting to prompt the AI to create a background, but it was easy enough to keep the distinct hair colours, and the mud ripples were excellent. However, you can see the AI cloning the faces to be uncannily similar.

cheer3.png

With 3, it becomes headache inducing. Firstly, generating three good characters with the same style, right poses and right textures is already taxing. Splicing them together means blending in the mud and background or drawing a new one. Running it through the AI means that now you have three separate characters, each with things that can go wrong, plus an entire background that can go wrong. This one took the better part of an hour to get to look like this. While the central character is distinct, you can see the two others begin to look the same. One benefit is that since the AI likes to clone similar features, it's easy to create a uniform look for... uniforms. I'm not sure I want to push more than three characters, as the rewards are often not worth the effort of forcing the AI to get the quality given the extra scale.

As an aside, the problem isn't too dissimilar to my problems when I did art. Making one character was already a ton of work. Drawing two or more was intensely extra effort. This was why I didn't really jump into making Quicky Sanders work with AI, since most of my QS artwork featured multiple unique characters in unique dynamic poses, which the AI struggles with. It certainly can be done, but the process is like bashing rocks together.
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MadMax359
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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby MadMax359 » Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:12 pm

isn't there an old saying, "if you save one cheerleader, you save the whole world"? :twisted:
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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby H8ms2014 » Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:22 am

MadMax359 wrote:isn't there an old saying, "if you save one cheerleader, you save the whole world"? :twisted:

"Save the Cheerleader, save the world"

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BogDog
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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby BogDog » Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:08 pm

NOT liking this. I just came from deviantart where I did a search for recent uploads under "stuck, mud" only to find the site flooded with A.I., most of it poorly made with distorted faces. AI art needs it's own website to upload to if it's going to displace"human" art so drastically.

https://www.deviantart.com/search/devia ... ost-recent
"Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid." - John Wayne

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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby Viridian » Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:59 pm

BogDog wrote:NOT liking this. I just came from deviantart where I did a search for recent uploads under "stuck, mud" only to find the site flooded with poorly made A.I. garbage. AI art needs it's own website to upload to if it's going to displace"human" art so drastically.

https://www.deviantart.com/search/devia ... ost-recent


Seeing art that you dislike is not a problem inherent to AI. DeviantArt is filled with all kinds of trash. That's the beauty of having a site that allows anyone to express themselves, no matter what the subject matter is, the style or the quality. You're allowed to upload creations regardless of whether a professional artist or someone just learning to draw with MS Paint. You don't get to decide whether something is good or bad enough to kick off the site. Some poor environment designer is probably thinking "I'm just looking for some reference material and I keep seeing these crayon scribbles, anime girls and Second Life screenshots of horny naked women, they should kick them off dA!"

Here's a tip: block what you don't like to see. Add the AI art tags to the filter in your profile - most of the "good" AI creators will responsibly tag their products. If there are specific creators you don't want to see, block them specifically. They won't see you and you won't see them.

The majority of deviants are hobbyists who are creating and expressing what they want, which people like you consume for free. You are free to flood the feed with art that you do want to see, and haters equally can't tell you to stop creating what you want.

Edit:
Furthermore, it's inane that you choose to hate on AI art because a generic search for "stuck, mud" brings up content you don't want to see. Deviantart isn't a premium gallery that exists to provide you with a feed full of content that specifically entertains you. It's not ClubMPV that promises to exclusively provide you with quicksand/mud fetish content. It's not "your" feed. If you want to tailor your feed to specifically have content that you want to see from people you want to see it from, use the Watch page:

https://www.deviantart.com/watch/deviations

If you're trawling through SEARCH to find new content, you're obviously going to get a lot of results that don't match what you want. This is the internet after all.
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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby BogDog » Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:50 pm

Seeing art that you dislike is not a problem inherent to AI.


I never said it was. But it's still artificial. Not poor art skills but rather poor use of software. Different animal.

I have no problem with "hate" when it comes to badly-made artificially generated art, especially when the software users flood the site with it as "AlexPetersNext100" did. His poorly AI-rendered works of overweight people in mud with horribly distorted faces filled 3/4 of the pages that came up. THAT'S not fair to skilled or even poor artists who have their works on the same pages.


AND I have no problem with art that someone created using various mediums including computers. They are more than welcome, as long as THE PEOPLE who contribute made the works. They could draw like a 1-year-old with a crayon for all I care. The results came from the human mind, not silicon and code.


I'm not saying AI art should be banned altogether. I've seen some amazing stuff posted here by you specifically. But it should not be mixed in with man-made art either. It's in a different class. Give it it's own place. Everything displayed at Deviantart has always been made by PEOPLE.


THANK YOU for informing me about the AI filter. That helped.

There it is, and I know I am not alone in how I feel about AI works mixed in with human-generated art. If you don't mind, then more power to you.




Furthermore, it's inane that you choose to hate on AI art because a generic search for "stuck, mud" brings up content you don't want to see. Deviantart isn't a premium gallery that exists to provide you with a feed full of content that specifically entertains you.


Nobody said othewise. Save the nanny crap for another day. 'Nuf sed/
"Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid." - John Wayne

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Re: AI quicksand/fetish art?

Postby Viridian » Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:59 am

BogDog wrote:The results came from the human mind, not silicon and code.

Every piece of QS AI art was given its direction and creative purpose by a human. AlexPeters has been making art in all forms for years before he started with AI. So has Kaol, who is a pioneer of our QS community, and is now "flooding" deviantart with AI-generated Judy Hopps fanart. Yeah, I don't personally like seeing Alex's BBW QS images either, but I block him so he never appears on my feed. At the end of the day, he is making what is in his mind. I'm already delving into the dregs of a very specific fetish; I don't get to judge others for liking their own thing, whether it's redheads, BBWs or furries.

As for fairness, it floods a search result sorted by most recent. ALL artists have equal access to the community and algorithms, and when sorted by most popular, well, the most popular ones are shown by default. That's the lucrative one, and one can make the argument that it's unfair because popular pieces only become more popular, which is kind of how it works. But any breakout piece with lots of engagement can break into the results. Most recent is an indiscriminate search that brings up everything. This isn't what artists are aiming for, since to do so means spamming quantity all the time.

The Main page is the most lucrative one since that's displayed front and centre without input based on your viewing preferences which you can tailor. Despite the anti-AI "protests" that cherry pick bad art and how it's taking over, the beautiful thing I see is that even though I engage in AI art, the Main page always bring up the most recent piece from AWSands because I engage with his work. You can select "Fewer like this..." to remove items that you don't like to see in the future. Largely though, you won't get a lot of "good" art in the Main feed because, as our artists have mentioned, there's not many people creating art for the QS community, so there's more people who aren't as skilled making what they want to see.

That's what DeviantArt is for. Saying that dA has "always been made by people" is a luddite argument that has been repeated and shot down ad nauseum. It's only supposedly been non-artificial because artists didn't widely have access to the knowledge and tools to use AI. The same argument about how "art has always been about _______" can be applied to the popularity of cameras and Photoshop. The same arguments about being a "different class" and needing to be separated were used for digital illustrations being "real art" or not because they used computer tools. Since then, digital art and tools have been largely accepted in the art community.

If the bar is "human mind", then that fairly includes all kinds of art that is created, directed and generated with a human in control. Someone making AI art with their creativity and discretion is using "silicon and code" no different to a 3D artist, or even a photographer. There is clearly is a difference between a piece created by an AI that has no idea what the interaction between quicksand and people are, and by someone who is intimately familiar with the QS fetish and community who understands what people like to see in that niche.

No one's saying that you have to like AI art, or any kind of art. A potter doesn't create the clay they work with; they shape it. Behind the Ai generated images is a person shaping the result to fit what is in their mind.
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