Days of Infamy

[kham]

Bullshit snipped.

OK sunshine, care to explain away the Bataan Death March?

How about the use of POWs as live bayonet practice targets?

Or what happened to the Wake Island Garrison (including the Pan Am civillian employees)

Or the use of Allied POWs as slave labour ?

How we doing so far, hmmm?

Propaganda?
You asshole, I got an uncle I never knew because he died in some miserable jap slave labour camp after the Hong Kong Garrison was hung out to dry.

And provoke?
Yeah, I guess cutting off their oil to dissuade them from waging a genocidal war on the Chinese mainland was real mean of us. Whatever floats your boat

[MuddyEddie]

You asshole, I got an uncle I never knew because he died in some miserable jap slave labour camp after the Hong Kong Garrison was hung out to dry.

Since you no longer wish to keep this conversation civil, and are going to resort to name-calling, I will not respond to your posts.

Eddie

[Duncan Edwards]

... I will not respond to your posts.

How could you?

Look, was it horrible that thousands died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Sure it was but would they be any less dead if they had died any other way? The United States killed more people by burning down most of Tokyo-Yokohama. Curtis LeMay had a plan to burn down every productive enterprise on the surface of Japan before the planned Sept. 1 invasion. Worse than the millions who would have been mangled or killed on both sides it would have made an enemy of Japan for generations to come.

When people bring up one particular "atrocity" in a global war filled with them I just roll my eyes in disbelief. Keep it in context and realize that there was a war going on. A war that most Americans were trying desperately to stay out of until December 7, 1941.

[bbjohn]

Thank you, Duncan!! You took the words right out of my mouth.

World War II was the greatest tragedy and man-made disaster of the 20th Century. Atrocities occurred on all sides. Some were deliberate policy, others were not. War is terrible. That's why it is something to be avoided. America was trying to avoid war until it was thrust upon us on Dec. 7, 1941.

The fact is Imperial Japan, along with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, chose to take up the sword against the world. They paid a terrible price for the folly, and the rest of the world paid a terrible price as well.

As for the decision to use the atomic bomb, this was an example of something we all must deal with at one time or another. We are not left to choose between right and wrong, but must instead choose between the lesser of evils. The argument could be made that, as horrible as the atomic bombs were, the only thing that would've cause more bloodshed and devastation would've been NOT using them.

When Harry Truman became President on the death of Franklin Roosevelt, he said "I feel like the sun, the moon and the stars all just fell on me." He understood the burden of responsibility he had, and he faced it head-on.

It says something about Americans that we still question the decision on the atomic bomb. Americans are, I believe, the most open and frank people in the world. That's one of the things that makes this country great.

May we never lose those qualities!

Big Bad John

[MuddyEddie]

The United States killed more people by burning down most of Tokyo-Yokohama. Curtis LeMay had a plan to burn down every productive enterprise on the surface of Japan before the planned Sept. 1 invasion.

{snip}

When people bring up one particular "atrocity" in a global war filled with them I just roll my eyes in disbelief.

Yes, there were many atrocities committed during WW-II. Most of which were propagated by the United States. You brought up the excellent point of Tokyo. I will also throw Dresden on the table as well. Perhaps the internment camps of North America could be added to those atrocities as well.

Yes, both Japan and Germany committed atrocities. I won't even deny that. But to try and make the United States sound innocent, as kham was attempting to do, is simply ignorant.

We need to admit that we aren't any better than any other nation when it comes to war crimes. Since our side "won" the war, however, apparently we don't need to justify ourselves.

Eddie

[MuddyEddie]

It says something about Americans that we still question the decision on the atomic bomb. Americans are, I believe, the most open and frank people in the world. That's one of the things that makes this country great.

May we never lose those qualities!

I vehemently agree with you! We are free to question those things that we feel are wrong. And I believe in healthy debate about these types of issues. That is the only way that we can solidify in our own minds what we actually believe.

My opinions have been changed many times over the years because I engaged in debate with others over issues such as this. And I'll keep an open mind toward those that have different views.

Until they personally attack me.

That is the sign of someone with a weak argument. If they have to resort to a personal attack, then they've exhausted their ammunition and are shooting blanks.

So, please bbjohn, feel free to question what I believe. Both of us may learn something!

Eddie

[kham]

Most of which were propagated by the United States

If that aint ideology, I dont know what is...

[Mynock]

Interesting, and expected, replies. The American propaganda ministry has done an excellent job on all the proles!
As for Nanking... who gives a shit! Just like it was with the Korean war, the atrocities committed there had nothing... NOTHING... to do with the United States. Who cares if one Asian country beats on another Asian country?

Again, two reasons, one logical and the other ideological:
First, We went across the Atlantic to fight Hitler for the same reason we went across the Pacific to fight Hirohito--if we hadn't fought them over there we'd have ended up fighing them over here, and by the time they got over here, they would've won. Do you think the Axis powers would have simply stopped once they'd conqered the Aisian, European, and African continents? No. India, the Middle East, and everything else that was left over there would've been next, and then they would've come for us, and at that point, with the resources of half the world at their disposal they would've been unstoppable.
Second, those are people you're talking about. Yea they've got weird slanty little eyes, they talk funny, and lately they've gotten some pretty strange ideas on how to run their government, but that doesn't make them any less human then you or I. They are people, they were in trouble, and we did what we could to help, which got us into some trouble of our own. That's the price you pay sometimes for being the good guys.

[Robert]

Lets also remember that the Nazis were a few weeks even days away from the atomic bomb themselves with the U-2 to carry it and Japan was working on one as well. There is no doubt in my mind that it could and probably would have been shared with Japan if they had got it first.

I agree and applaud a discussion that questions and dissects how the US conducts war and to hold accountable all sides.

Robert

[MuddyEddie]

Lets also remember that the Nazis were a few weeks even days away from the atomic bomb themselves with the U-2 to carry it and Japan was working on one as well. There is no doubt in my mind that it could and probably would have been shared with Japan if they had got it first.

Somehow, I can't imagine Bono carrying a bomb around. But perhaps it could have been carried by the V-2!

But it's true that both Germany and Japan had excellent atomic research programs in place. Japan was quite a few months behind Germany, but they were still a threat in that area. Still, I can't see how our bombing of their civilian population would serve any logical purpose in dissuading them from continuing their research.

We were already at peace with Germany by the time we dropped the bombs on Japan, so it served no purpose in that arena either.

However, the psychological impact of dropping the bombs on Japan did serve to convince the Japanese leaders that the United States was a powerful force in the world. From that one aspect we can give some creedence to the argument that the bombing was justified.

And here we are, 65 years later. What country is the dominant nation for technological development? Japan! Meanwhile the United States continues to slip further and further down the slope of educational ignorance. There is a lot to be said about unrighteous leaders and how they can destroy a once great nation! When you stop to think about how the strongest and most dominant nation - technologically, industrially, agriculturally and academically - has fallen to the brink of internal destruction, it does boggle the mind!

And it can be summed up in one word... Rome!

Eddie