How does one deal with somone like Lt. Cmdr. Queeg?

[bbjohn]

I recall hearing some stories about Taffy 3, and there was even a CGI re-creation of the battle on the History Channel. From what I understand, the psychological blow to the Japanese Navy was almost as bad as the loss of their ships and crews. When the much smaller American vessels attacked with the fury that they did, it told the Japanese the Americans had absolutely no fear of them. This was an embarrassment for the Japanese warriors.

The fact the Imperial Navy took such a bruising in what should've been a one-sided battle was an even greater humiliation.

Gen. Douglas MacArthur understood the Japanese warrior culture. That's why, when he arrived in Tokyo after the war, he had only one bodyguard and his own sidearm. He knew the signal he'd be sending was he was not afraid of the Japanese. That would drive home the point to them that the war was over and they had lost.

It was as if MacArthur was saying, "We whooped your butts! Want to see how badly we whooped your butts? Look at me!! I only have my sidearm, and that's only because I'm supposed to carry it! That's how bad we whooped your butts! Now, let's talk. I'll talk and you listen!"

The world, and especially Japan, can be grateful we had someone who knew the Japanese as well as he did running things in Tokyo after the war. He was possibly the best expert on Asia the U.S. military ever had.

Big Bad John

[kham]

Yes, they did an episode of dogfights based on the engagement -- not bad but it does not really do it justice. When you consider some of the revisionists who think it was all Halsey's fault, well.... they really should look at his actual orders. Plus, there WERE communications balls-ups like you would not believe. I always thought they tried that sort of spin to make the IJN look good, and Halsey bad. Good? Bullshit. Utter and complete. The force led by Nishimura in the straits had been utterly wiped out (and all revisionists aside, they had been shredded long before the old battle line even opened fire, by continuous attacks by PT boats and DDs) Ozawa's Carrier force, an empty shell was essentially wiped out. The Centre force ran into Taffy 3, and basically stuck their face into a wood chipper from the ferocity of the attacks. Had they been so "lucky" As to meet up with TF 34 and her heavy units? Uh huh. So you would maybe have Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, and Haruna going up against Iowa, New Jersey, Washington, Alabama, Massachusetts, and South Dakota. In a night engagement. With TF34 having radar-fire-controlled 16" gunnery. And under the command of Willis Lee. Yeah . Good luck on that. One -sided butchery would have been the result, no matter what sort of spin they try to put on it. (note for Willis Lee -- commanded the TF on board Washington that sank the only japanese battleship on a one-on-one fight in the entire war at Guadalcanal; was literally an expert in weapons from .45 calibre pistol to 16" naval rifle; won 7 medals, including 5 gold at 1920 Olympics in sharpshooting)

[PM2K]

The Taffy 3 engagement is a story which needs a proper telling... whether by a top documentary crew, or a skilled and factual filmmaker.

[Duncan Edwards]

Yes, they did an episode of dogfights based on the engagement -- not bad but it does not really do it justice. When you consider some of the revisionists who think it was all Halsey's fault, well.... they really should look at his actual orders. Plus, there WERE communications balls-ups like you would not believe. I always thought they tried that sort of spin to make the IJN look good, and Halsey bad. Good? Bullshit. Utter and complete. The force led by Nishimura in the straits had been utterly wiped out (and all revisionists aside, they had been shredded long before the old battle line even opened fire, by continuous attacks by PT boats and DDs) Ozawa's Carrier force, an empty shell was essentially wiped out. The Centre force ran into Taffy 3, and basically stuck their face into a wood chipper from the ferocity of the attacks. Had they been so "lucky" As to meet up with TF 34 and her heavy units? Uh huh. So you would maybe have Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, and Haruna going up against Iowa, New Jersey, Washington, Alabama, Massachusetts, and South Dakota. In a night engagement. With TF34 having radar-fire-controlled 16" gunnery. And under the command of Willis Lee. Yeah . Good luck on that. One -sided butchery would have been the result, no matter what sort of spin they try to put on it. (note for Willis Lee -- commanded the TF on board Washington that sank the only japanese battleship on a one-on-one fight in the entire war at Guadalcanal; was literally an expert in weapons from .45 calibre pistol to 16" naval rifle; won 7 medals, including 5 gold at 1920 Olympics in sharpshooting)

Yeah, it would have been the last great encounter with big guns and armor. What a scene that would have made.

So what happens if they went on to finish the escort carriers and headed for the beach? Do they encounter Oldendorf's bombardment force? What happens?

[bbjohn]

Making a turn on the subject of this thread, we've talked about Queeg, but what about Keefer? Every organization has people like him: the sneaky one who wreaks havoc from behind the scenes and gets others to do his dirty work for him. He's also happy to let them take the rap. In their way, Keefers are as destructive as Queegs. I think that was one of the major reasons Barney had such contempt for him. I'm certain Herman Wouk saw plenty of Keefers during his time in the service. While it was clear what he thought about people like Queeg, it's also clear what he thought about the Keefers of the world.

In the movie, Keefer was played by Fred MacMurray. Before he became known for his comedies for Disney and for being the iconic American dad on "My Three Sons," he was known as one of the most versatile dramatic actors in Hollywood. Compare the role of Keefer with, say, his role in "The Absent Minded Professor," and you can see just how good he really was.

I understand he was proudest of his role on "My Three Sons." He said he came to understand what that role came to mean for many people, and he certainly appreciated it. He didn't mind his character being considered the perfect American dad.

It's hard to know who was better in "The Caine Mutiny," Bogey or MacMurray. They were both incredibly good.

Big Bad John

[kham]

Bogey, since he was so good, so far outside his comfort zone. MacMurry was good, but he was versatile to begin with, so it wasn't as startling a role for him.

Weasels like Keefer exist at every level and in every position of industry, science, military, and others. They are the ones who define the peter principle. Pushed up under glass, who get promoted and nothing sticks to them unless its epic. Here, in a different setting (WW II, combat) the yardstick is a little different, and like Barney said, you'll get out, go back to writing your novel, make a million bucks and marry some big-titted actress. But you will ALWAYS be a scumbag. Live with that. And thats why Barney wanted to beat the shit out of him. Contempt is the low-end of what the type deserves.

[kham]

Yeah, it would have been the last great encounter with big guns and armor. What a scene that would have made.

So what happens if they went on to finish the escort carriers and headed for the beach? Do they encounter Oldendorf's bombardment force? What happens?

Kurita broke off contact at around 0915 -- just as 2 of his cruisers were within 10,000 yards of the retreating carriers to the west. The signals were typically Japan-spin of the era, not specifically ordering "withdrawal" but when he signals "rendezvous, my course North speed 20" You dont get the vibe that there's anything else but run away going on.

At this point, Taffy 3 had no escorts but Heerman, and the DE's that stuck with the TG who were out of position to engage. Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, and Haruna while knocked about some had taken no serious hits and no loss of combat capacity, or speed. Pressing on, likely 2 more hours would have finished off Taffy 3, and likely emperiled Taffy 1 and 2 as well. The transports would have also been at risk. Now, here's the thing: press on, yeah you likely will accomplish the mission. But the transports are already empty. Trying to use a naval task force against a land army on its own is an absolute violation of basic seapower going back to some guy called Mahan

Ok, so the field is clear, and you somehow have controlled the weather enough to avoid getting shredded by further air attacks. Your likely move to escape, WOULD be shape course for Desolation Point and through Suriago Strait. North now, at this time, will have you meet up with TF34 ( and if that somehow pans out all shiny, then TF58s carriers -- the real ones -- come dawn)

Really, thats the only move you have left. Based on a fleet speed of say around, 20 knots, and where Oldendorf's Battle Line was, you will likely meet North of Desolation Point, at around dark.
You will probably be low on ammo, even with the most optimistic gunnery of the day. So will the Battle Line, but not as much, since the actual fight wasnt that long last night. Both side's destroyers would have no torpedoes, so it would be a straight gunnery duel. Night again, with radar allowing Oldendorf to pick the engagement and setup, which means you will be walking into the same sort of ambush that slaughtered Nishimura last night. Only bonus being you wouldn't be sniped by waves of PTs and DDs beforehand. Battle line consisted of West Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi, Tennessee, California, and Pennsylvania; familiar names eh? Thats a lot of gun tubes. USS Louisville, Portland, Minneapolis and HMAS Shropshire lead the CAs and Denver, Columbia, Phoenix and Boise make up the CLs. The engagement favours the USN , the only edge in gun power would go to Yamato. But she is just one ship, the rest of the IJN BB's are last war's technology. Nagato is big (42,000 tons) but Kongo and Haruna were originally built as battlecruisers, and would not have fared well in a sustained gun duel. My assessment is that the IJN force would be smashed, with any survivors being finished off at daybreak by naval airstrikes. It would not have altered the course of the war. It would however put an end to any illusions the IJN had remaining about further operations.

[kham]

Finished up Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors

And I think I know why there has been so little done for this engagement.
After the action, there was some criticism, rightly so of Halsey's performance. It also didn't help matters that he was tooting his own success to overshadow the actions of Taffy 3. There were some serious, written rebuttals, but from the looks of it, Chester Nimitz didn't want to shadow the victory with any infighting. He was successful in this, even to the extent that King who was personally outraged at Halsey, was even talked down. Nimitz must have been quite a guy, but thats pretty much the take I have always had on him as a Theatre Commander.

This seems to have influenced, even if unintentionally, the take many historians have in their writings on the subject. Wouk wrote extensively about the action in War and Rememberance, but with it being a fictional book, it may have imbued readers with the idea that the action was fiction as well. As time passed, other than the participants, no one would really have interest. And even there, many of them would just want to go on with their lives.

[kham]

Next up, Clash of the Carriers, by Barrett Tillman --- so far looking like a good read, Tillman has been writing good stuff for naval aviation for decades

[Tim Kelly]

Personally I always found that the best way to deal with a Queeg was the system we used in 'Nam; for further details see Wikipedia entry on "Fragging"....