D- Day June 6, 1944

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bbjohn
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby bbjohn » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:35 pm

Er...how about the Il-2 was ONE of the best? ;)

Getting back to the subject of this thread (we go all over the place, don't we?), many of the American tank crews who came ashore on D-Day and those who liberated Western Europe were trained in my home state of Arizona at a place called Camp Bouse. This was one of several installations in California and Arizona which became collectively known as the Desert Training Center. At one time, given the total acreage it covered, it was the largest military installation in the world.

I understand Gen. George S. Patton selected these sites himself for three reasons. First, they were remote. Second, they were accessible by rail. Finally, he knew the harsh environment of the desert would be perfect for training the crews for the conditions they would face in combat (If you've ever been to Phoenix or Tucson in July and tried driving a car with no air conditioning and the windows rolled up, you have some idea of what it was like to drive a tank at Camp Bouse).

Every year, the community of Bouse has a day to honor those who trained there. I've had the privilege of meeting some of the vets who trained at Camp Bouse and went on to North Africa, Italy, Western Europe, and the Pacific. Most of those I spoke with were grateful for the training they had, as they soon found American tanks, like the M4 Sherman, were at a disadvantage when they came up against the German Panzers.

Simply put, the Panzers should shoot further, hit harder, and be hit harder themselves than the Shermans. The Germans called the Sherman the "Tommy Cooker." Tommies was a slang term for British and Allied troops.

American tank crews soon learned how to use the mass number of Shermans against the Panzers. While a Sherman was toast in a one-on-one battle with a Panther, Tiger or King Tiger tank, the mass firepower of many Shermans was enough to negate the advantages individual Panzers had against a single Sherman.

I should add that American and British tank crews became quite adept at figuring out methods of beating the Panzers that weren't included in the training manuals.

What the Germans thought of the troops who trained at Camp Bouse was seen in a poem entitled "Und Still Sie Kommt" (And Still They Came). It was based on a conversation between an American officer and a former German officer some years after the war ended. The German marveled at how they threw everything they had at the American troops, and they kept right on coming.

"Where is this Camp Bouse, where such young lions were trained?" the German asks at the end of the poem.

People everywhere can be grateful those troops trained at Camp Bouse, Arizona kept right on coming.

- Big Bad John

jack c
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby jack c » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:13 am

It is true that the history I have read says that the US/British forces used inferior tanks but superior tactics and numbers to defeat the Germans. They tried to develop a faster. smaller tank, the Panther, but of course uncle Adolf interfered and insisted that it be armored even more than the Tiger, so it wound up being a wonderful one-on-one tank, a fuel guzzler, and victim to the same Allied tactics that defeated the Tigers. I suppose if the Germans could have matched the Allies in the numbers of tanks that they could have prevailed in individual battles. But they still suffered from being blockaded from enough sources of fuel to sustain operations. This is a good thing historically - a wholly Nazi Europe would have been worse than the Stalin-Roosevelt-Churchill divided Europe (remember those East German female swimmers in the Olympics?).

We have entered a new arena where the enemy is multiple small fish instead of a few large sharks. This kind of war tests our values more than WWII. The big war was more horrific; this war is at multiple low levels targeting civilians. How must we compromise our "British fair play" values to fight and defeat the current terrorist conflict? Not an easy answer. My steel plant is a key defense supplier and was audited by Homeland Security 3 years ago. The auditors were all full time Army and Air Force National Guard - all had done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. They were outstanding in their courage and convictions. I think we will win this conflict, but it will take will and time, at least as long as the Cold War. It is almost like a reverse Crusades, without the big armies - who is right? I think we are and should be left alone. But medieval history shows that the Western world did not leave the other side alone for centuries. The madness continues. It is nice to have an Army Guardsman thank you for making steel armor plate that saved 10 lives in a military vehicle designed to protect our soldiers from road-side IUD's. It make going to work worthwhile for me.

I think we should allow the Western European countries the opportunity to defend themselves at this point, with an eye on China as the next aggressor. We'll see.

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kham
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby kham » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:38 am

Actually, the Panther was inferior to the Tiger, as far as armour goes; It WAS faster and more agile, but not grossly so. Its' main gun however was even more destructive -- which most conventional non-gun types can't get their mind around since it was a 75 and the Tiger had an 88; velocity girls, velocity... :) if I had to pick, I would take the Tiger for survivability. And having read Canadian Armour tactics of the period, and the men that survived, I would not have wanted to be the 4 Shermans trying to distract a Tiger for the Firefly -- by letting it blow holes in me :shock: War really is hell.

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Mynock
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby Mynock » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:11 pm

It was basically like 4 Honda Civics trying to take down a Hummer H2 in a demolition derby.
I don't like to say that the Sherman was inferior. It was considered a medium tank where as most of the German metal fell into the heavy category. It had roughly half the overall tonnage of a Tiger, less than half the armor, and it's gun had roughly half the muzzle velocity and shell weight.
What it did have going for it was mobility. They were only about 5mph faster in the field but the massive difference in weight meant that the Sherman could easily be transported via rail and utilize civilian infrastructure--they could drive on paved roads and cross bridges that would collapse under the weight of the larger German tanks.
And yea, we had the advantage of resources. When the enemy can roll two tanks off the assembly line for every one you destroy it's only a matter of time.
"Know thyself, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories."
--Sun Tzu

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PM2K
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby PM2K » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:21 pm

Mynock wrote:It was basically like 4 Honda Civics trying to take down a Hummer H2 in a demolition derby.


You get my vote for coolest metaphor during a discussion about tank tactics... ;)

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fightingfish
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby fightingfish » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:02 pm

I feel sorry that so many Americans had to give their lifes to free Europe. Especially in Germany we should much more honor these brave men, because they freed us from Hitler, a thing we were never able to do by ourselves and they brought us freedom, peace, prosperity and protected us against the soviet empire for decades!I am very grateful for this. The USA is our best friend and will it ever be. Thank you for all what you did for us! :)
Thank you quicksand actresses for the marvelous job you are doing for us fans! :)

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Duncan Edwards
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby Duncan Edwards » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:52 pm

fightingfish wrote:I feel sorry that so many Americans had to give their lifes to free Europe. Especially in Germany we should much more honor these brave men, because they freed us from Hitler, a thing we were never able to do by ourselves and they brought us freedom, peace, prosperity and protected us against the soviet empire for decades!I am very grateful for this. The USA is our best friend and will it ever be. Thank you for all what you did for us! :)


First of all - You are welcome.

We were scared. Americans tend to do great things when properly motivated and the two best motivations are greed and scared. For instance the Panama Canal was greed. Going to the Moon was scared. WWII and the Cold War was absolutely terrified because we thought fascists on both coasts were coming to get us and then the commies followed. We have now created a world where we are so fat, dumb, and happy, I fear the days of great achievement may be over.

Now about this business of who had the better tanks. Comparing the Sherman to anything the Germans fielded is not a good comparison. The Sherman was an infantry support weapon for busting through soldiers and fortifications. It wasn't really intended to fight armor on armor with it's better opponents. The US had air power and massed artillery with the world's best fire direction to deal with superior German tanks. As already mentioned by others the beauty of the Sherman was it was easy to transport, maintain, supply, and manufacture. Walter Chrysler could turn 50,000 of them out of Detroit so we could share them with our allies and replace our losses in endless quantity and variation. It wasn't the best tank fighting tank of the war but it was best for America. That's all we needed.

The relationship we now enjoy with our former adversaries definitely ranks among our nation's greatest achievements. We were enemies only for the duration of the war but for others it was definitely something more. The pain between say the Russians and Germany or Korea and China and Japan already existed and will be there for generations. We didn't hate you. We just had to fight you. I'm glad that almost 70 years later it's not become anything personal.
It's a dirty job but I got to do it for 27 years. Thank you.

bbjohn
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Re: D- Day June 6, 1944

Postby bbjohn » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:33 pm

Thanks for the kind words, Fighting Fish. As an American, it's nice to know some people still appreciate what we did in WWII and the Cold War.It says something about Americans that we worked to turn former enemies into allies and friends. I hope we never get into the long-term grudges and grievances that plague so many countries in the world.

Duncan, I wanted to mention to you that my mom lived in Center Line, Mich. when she was growing up, just about two miles north of Detroit. She told me how, during the war years, they would sometimes test drive the Sherman tanks on Van Dyke Ave. and Ten Mile Road, the two main roads that intersected in Center Line. She said she and her friends used to marvel at the impressions the tank treads left in the pavement. At least it was for a good cause.

You're right in that the Sherman was a good vehicle for what it was designed for. American tank crews were taught to think for themselves, which explains how they were able to devise ways of defeating the Panzers that weren't in the training manuals.

Given how bureaucratized things have become today, I suspect today they would appoint a committee to study the situation and produce a report. Then, they'd have another committee study the first report and make recommendations. The recommendations would be studied by another committee which would recommend what to do with the recommendations.

You get the idea.

That reminds me of a joke:

Q. How many bureaucrats does it take to change a light bulb?

A. We'll have to form a committee to look into that and we'll get back to you just as soon as we confirm the report the light bulb needs to be replaced and do a study on the best practices for changing light bulbs. :lol:

-Big Bad John


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