Bill Overstreet Jr. WWII Fighter Ace, Big Damn Hero.

[PM2K]

A small remark about Stalingrad. I am always totally puzzled why Western (especially American) people always mention Stalingrad only. It was one of the major battles of the WWII, I agree, but only one of. Not the first victory over Germans, and not the most lethal. (The initial offensive of the Germans in 1941 was - and I hope will remain forever - the most lethal battle in human history.) You'd say, it was the pivot point. Yes, again, one of. The battle of Moscow in December 1941 was more critical, and the victory was... I'd say, more surprising. I don't know how they managed to stop the Germans in less than 40 km (25 miles) from Kremlin. Yes, the Germans were exhausted to that moment, but they were in 25 miles from Kremlin. They were in Khimki - it is closer to the center than any of today's Moscow airports.

And it was as close as they ever would get to the capital.

Not to downplay the incredible contributions and sacrifices of all nations who took part in the Second World War - or Great Patriotic War to our Russian friends - but the war against fascism in Europe would have been a lot more difficult and costly if not for the pounding the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe took in Eastern Europe, and the horribly high cost paid by the Soviet armed forces and civilians caught up in that meat grinder. Consider just the high cost of fighting in Normandy. Now imagine what it would have been like if the bulk of Hitler's divisions weren't being chewed up in the east, but were instead being used to repulse the invasion of France. Scary thought, even with the Allied air superiority.

If I recall correctly, Germany was on the retreat as of 1943 following actions such as the Battle of Kursk... After Stalingrad, the Germans launched another counteroffensive in the summer which was stopped, then rolled back by the Red Army.

[kham]

In every war, it's not always about actual events, but the perception of those events. Stalingrad likely in the big picture , could have fallen and not altered the course of the war. But it didn't. The Nazi's were stopped cold. And they lost an ENTIRE army, roughly 1% of their entire population in the battle. That, as they say is a BFD. In 1942, the desert war crested for the Germans at El Alamein; the Japanese were crushed at the Battle of Midway, and crushed even worse in the Guadalcanal campaign. The Air War over Germany was heating up with both Bomber Command and the 8th Air Force growing stronger every day.

From the end of 1942 onward, while it was a long way from over, the issue was not in doubt. It was just a matter of time. I think one German general , when asked what do we do now? Replied, "Make PEACE you fools!"

[Fred588]

According to Wikipedia (which everyone knows is infallible) the quote "Make peace you fools," occurred on July 1, 1944. Also, the more correct translation from the German is "Finish with the war, idiots!" The speaker was gerd von Runsteadt.

[bbjohn]

Billie,

I'm sorry to say that many Westerners, including Americans, are painfully ignorant about the Eastern Front during World War II. I credit that to the Cold War, when there was a tendency on the part of Americans to downplay or ignore anything good the Russians did. I wonder, for example, how many Americans are aware of the Siege of Leningrad, where the people of that city held out for more than two years against the Wehrmacht. The population nearly starved or froze to death that first winter, but they held out until spring. It was like the longer the siege lasted, the stronger the Russians got.

You are right about the Battle of Moscow. It's nothing short of astonishing how the Russians turned back the German juggernaut. I understand Hitler had plans to spend Christmas in Moscow. Like the plans to invade England, those plans had to be "postponed."

I wonder how many Americans are aware the Soviet Union had more civilian casualties than America had total casualties for the entire conflict.

There simply can be no denying the people of the Soviet Union did the majority of the fighting and dying in the war to defeat Hitler's Germany. All the world owes them a tremendous debt.

I caught something on the American television series, Band of Brothers, which is about a U.S. Army unit in Europe during the war. Near the end of the series, the characters hear over the radio that Hitler had committed suicide. One of the characters remarked, "He should've done that a couple of years ago. He would've saved us all a lot of trouble."

That's the trouble with megalomaniacs. They never know when to quit, and they don't mind making the rest of us suffer for it.

-Big Bad John

[Fred588]

You are very correct about the Russian contribution, and you actually understate it. The number of Russian (Soviet) casualties, including civilians, was more, by a factor of TWENTY, that all USA war casualties from the American Revolution to the present day.

The very sudden reversal of fortune that occurred in the Battle of Moscow, also shows something else, in my opinion. That is, that any modern war is a lot more about firepower than valor or anything else. The reversal occurred when the oil in the German tanks and weapons froze and the oil in the Russian tanks and weapons did not,

Billie,

I'm sorry to say that many Westerners, including Americans, are painfully ignorant about the Eastern Front during World War II. I credit that to the Cold War, when there was a tendency on the part of Americans to downplay or ignore anything good the Russians did. I wonder, for example, how many Americans are aware of the Siege of Leningrad, where the people of that city held out for more than two years against the Wehrmacht. The population nearly starved or froze to death that first winter, but they held out until spring. It was like the longer the siege lasted, the stronger the Russians got.

You are right about the Battle of Moscow. It's nothing short of astonishing how the Russians turned back the German juggernaut. I understand Hitler had plans to spend Christmas in Moscow. Like the plans to invade England, those plans had to be "postponed."

I wonder how many Americans are aware the Soviet Union had more civilian casualties than America had total casualties for the entire conflict.

There simply can be no denying the people of the Soviet Union did the majority of the fighting and dying in the war to defeat Hitler's Germany. All the world owes them a tremendous debt.

I caught something on the American television series, Band of Brothers, which is about a U.S. Army unit in Europe during the war. Near the end of the series, the characters hear over the radio that Hitler had committed suicide. One of the characters remarked, "He should've done that a couple of years ago. He would've saved us all a lot of trouble."

That's the trouble with megalomaniacs. They never know when to quit, and they don't mind making the rest of us suffer for it.

-Big Bad John

[Billie Bonce]

It seems, I hijacked the whole topic, what wasn't my intention and I apologize for it. I would gladly answer some above posts, but it would mean further movement away from the initial topic. Maybe the topic can be separated in two?