Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

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QuicksandMania
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Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby QuicksandMania » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:05 pm

Since there seem to be some mechanically inclined people on this board, I thought I would post this question.

I have a 2002 Honda Accord LX sedan with 185,000 miles on it and the original engine. I am the original owner. I just learned that cylinder 1 has low compression most likely due to worn rings. I was quoted $1800 to tear down and rebuild the engine or $3100 to replace the engine with a used one that has 75,000 miles on it. The Honda dealer mechanic recommended the latter option since the former one meant keeping an engine that already had 185,000 miles on it. That could just be "trash to cash" talk on his part.

I am not sure what else could go wrong with an engine that old other than perhaps the cylinders themselves wearing. That was what finally made me unload my last Honda, a 1987 Accord hatchback with 232,000 miles on it and the original engine. A third party (not dealer) mechanic recommended I just get a new car after he diagnosed the excessive cylinder wear. So I traded it for my current Honda.

The car drives okay but idles rough because of the cylinder 1 issue and is not acceptable to drive this way long term. I am a little miffed because I just replaced the timing belt and steering rods (again at a third party mechanic). The compression issue was diagnosed at Honda shortly after these services. (My reasons for using multiple mechanics across time are too complicated to explain here.)

The third option is just to trade the old car for a new one even though I love the current car and it is in excellent shape otherwise. The third party mechanic actually complimented me on how well-maintained my car looked for its mileage. I would prefer not to change cars since I despise car payments. But my preference may be due to unexamined emotions rather than sound reasoning about just how much mileage I can reasonably put on this car and the comparable "pennies per passenger mile" of the two options. Repairs are getting costly.

Edmunds has an article on this subject at http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/fix-up-or-trade-up.html which was interesting.

I welcome any informed opinions including suggestions for more "technically oriented" boards to post the question.

marshmouse
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby marshmouse » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:28 pm

A big part of what goes in to this decision is how many miles you drive in a year. Your 87 Accord made it to 232k miles in 15 years, but was that rate consistent across time or did you have a few high rate years mixed in?

Timing belts are labor expen$ive, so since you've recently made a commitment on a third belt I would only think about that in terms of trade in value.

Your personal driving habits make a big difference. My 1983(new) Accord made it to 260k after 17 years. My 2000(new) Camry made it across the 100k mark only 2 months ago. So 100k across 15 years make my driving habits are such that neither car has needed the kind of serious work you need now.

Does your area get snow? Is your travel across flat land or do you drive up and down elevations? You can take 110k miles off your engine life, but how is your transmission doing? Do you live anywhere near salt water (which trashed my 1980 Triumph Spitfire in San Francisco).

The more stress you put your car through on a regular basis (long miles in short periods, your current mechancial repairs, etc.) the more I think you should be looking at a new car. Comparing your experiences with mine, it seems to me that your 2002 had begun its journey through the bardo, which will mean one expensive repair after another from here on out. Stick with Honda and you'll fall in love all over again :)
Peeps!

QuicksandMania
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby QuicksandMania » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:22 pm

marshmouse wrote:Does your area get snow? Is your travel across flat land or do you drive up and down elevations? You can take 110k miles off your engine life, but how is your transmission doing? Do you live anywhere near salt water (which trashed my 1980 Triumph Spitfire in San Francisco).

The more stress you put your car through on a regular basis (long miles in short periods, your current mechancial repairs, etc.) the more I think you should be looking at a new car. Comparing your experiences with mine, it seems to me that your 2002 had begun its journey through the bardo, which will mean one expensive repair after another from here on out. Stick with Honda and you'll fall in love all over again :)

I learned a new word today!

Definition of BARDO
Lamaism
: the intermediate or astral state of the soul after death and before rebirth


LOL!

I live in Florida on the Space Coast though not on the beach so no snow but there is enough salt air inland to make a difference. My commute is 16 miles one way to work daily into the middle of a wildlife refuge (Kennedy Space Center) on paved roads but with no elevations. We have taken a couple of long road trips in it but that was in 2003 right after we bought it. I have averaged 15,000 miles per year since 2010.

I truly hate big financial decisions -- so damned stressful.

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Mynock
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby Mynock » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm

If the car isn't under warranty stay away from the dealer lots. I don't want to say they'll overcharge you because they won't, but you're paying for a level of service you just don't need for a 15 year old car with 180k, on it.

Replacing the piston rings would consist of pulling the motor out of the car, tearing it completely apart and rebuilding it from the crank up (if you're going to get that far into an engine replacing other wear parts while you're in there is a no brainer, it's the labor cost involved not the part price). $1800 for this amount of labor and highly technical work sounds way too cheap, unless they're planning on hitting you with a bunch of additional bills once your car is torn apart in their garage.

Option 2 is to just pull the old motor out and put another one in. This is the sensible option due to the labor involved with rebuilding a motor. $3100 for this sounds ridiculously high though. Should be about $1000 for labor to pull the old motor and put the new one in. Add that to the prices below.

2.3L VTECH for $700 w/ 45k-65k miles.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/98-02-HONDA-ACC ... 7f&vxp=mtr

2.3L VTECH for $450 w/ 118k miles.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-1998-199 ... e2&vxp=mtr

2.3L VTECH for $550 w/ 45k-65k miles.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/98-02-Honda-Acc ... a2&vxp=mtr

So you should be looking at less than $2,000 for a new motor.

Also, congrats on being thrifty! If the car is in otherwise decent shape (how's the transmission? Change the fluid regularly? CHANGE THE FLUID) swapping a new-to-you motor into it is a way better "investment" than buying a new car. Two grand is what? 4 months of car payments? Beats 60 months of car payments. :D
"Know thyself, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories."
--Sun Tzu

QuicksandMania
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby QuicksandMania » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:39 pm

I talked to a reliable local mechanic who quoted $2,700 for engine replacement -- just shy of the $3,100 the dealer quoted for the same work -- and he was skeptical of the value of replacing an engine in a car that old.

I test drove a 2015 Civic and 2015 Accord today. I definitely need the leg room of an Accord. The technology in these new cars is unbelievable: reverse shift cameras, Bluetooth, USB ports ... incredible. I cannot believe how much has changed in 13 years.

The current market value of my car is quite low already and considerably lower in its current condition. I wish I had researched this before changing the timing belt. Anyway, there was a nice demonstration champagne colored 2015 Accord sedan that was offered for $20,000 after trading my old one. I told them I would sleep on it. I normally get used cars but it looks like a decent deal as did my last one. Per http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2015/Hon ... ost-to-Own I dislike the first year depreciation, though, but the older models seemed not much of a price improvement.

Per http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2002/Hon ... -LX/Values I get:

Total Base Price
Rough Trade-In $1,325
Average Trade-In $2,050
Clean Trade-In $2,650
Clean Retail $4,500

Does anyone have an "algorithm" they follow so they avoid spending money on tires, timing belts, etc. on high mileage cars, i.e. a "point of no return" they use to make the "repair or replace" decision? The mechanic I mentioned said usually "big ticket" items like engines and transmissions are the breaking point. What I need to know is expensive but "routine" maintenance decisions like timing belt or tire replacement and "repair or replace the car" decisions. How can anyone predict when these major failures happen? My current car has tires less than a year old. :(

This sh!t drives me f***ing batty!

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Qsvgitguy
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby Qsvgitguy » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:19 pm

I have a 2007 Honda Civic. I've drove Honda's for the past 20 years or so and have always found them to be great cars. What I tend to do is drive them until its not worth repairing anymore. I always push that as far as I can because I hate the whole process of finding and buying a car. I'm with you in hating car payments. But considering the age and cost of the repair you're facing, I'd have to say its time. What I did when I got my 07 Civic was instead of a new car, I bought a car that was about 4 years old from a Honda Dealer. Over a third less than buying it new.

First thing you do when you find a car you like is ask to take it a mechanic you trust and pay him 50 bucks to check the car out fully. You can use that info to haggle with the price. The dealer tried to lock me down on a price I said we're not going there until I have the car checked out. They looked at me like I had three heads and said "We're ***** Honda! Why would you possibly want to have the car checked out? You can trust us."

Long story short, I was ready to walk out the door until they agreed not only to lower their price, but promised to fix anything my mechanic found. All the air filters were toast and needed to be replaced, the spark plugs were on death's door, the center break light was out, and the rear breaks were over 95% worn.

Break job $450
Break Light $150
Tuneup $350
Air filters $75

All Free! :D

Good Luck.

QuicksandMania
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby QuicksandMania » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:55 pm

My book club pal swears this could be simply a valve issue so I will check that this week.
Last edited by QuicksandMania on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mynock
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby Mynock » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:34 am

Is your car smoking (like out the tailpipe)? Drastic loss of power? Sorry never asked what brought you to the mechanics in the first place.

Something I thought of while changing my oil this afternoon haha. Check your oil and see if there's water in it, and check your radiatior coolant to see if there's oil in it. Your head gasket could be blown and the compression could be going into the coolant and or oil system. Head gaskets don't always leak to the outside when they blow. If this is the issue it's a much cheaper repair.
"Know thyself, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories."
--Sun Tzu

QuicksandMania
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby QuicksandMania » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:03 am

It is a long story.

Back in October 2013 I had a bunch of water system hoses fail all at once. The car started fuming water and running hot (though not redline hot) near Pep Boys so I had them address the issue rather than my usual mechanic at Schlenker. They did an acceptable job with a 12 month 12,000 mile warranty on the work.

I had a tune-up done a year later at Tires Plus for the same reason: The car started giving me rough engine trouble when I was in the immediate vicinity of that garage so I had them address it. The car needed a tune-up and ran fine after that. Around this same time I also got a new set of tires at Schlenker.

A couple of weeks ago I noticed a whiff of sweet antifreeze smell occasionally. My wife also noticed some fluid spots on our driveway left by my car. Since I was satisfied with the work Pep Boys did on my water system and they were much closer to my work than Schlenker, I took the car to them. They found signs of fluid leakage both in the areas related to the timing belt and the steering rods. I knew the timing belt was past due for change and that the steering system components wear eventually. So I authorized them to perform the work. It took all day. I burned the day at the local mall strolling through shops, snacking, and watching the disappointing film Tomorrowland.

This time, their work left something to desire. The car ran rougher with lower power than expected after I left the shop and the clowns left the mud guard under the left front wheel unclipped. It dragged on the ground and against the wheel. I had already lost a day of work so I let it go the next two work days and the weekend and brought it back to Pep Boys the following Monday. Long story short, they kept my car for two days scratching their heads. They confirmed that the timing belt job was performed properly. They finally determined that a screw left loose in the distributor from the Tires Plus tune-up had broken free from the Pep Boys work and was causing at least part of the problem. Even with that fixed, they still could not stop some of the roughness and said they suspected low compression on one or more cylinders. They also shrugged about the mud guard and never got it fully fastened back. They charged me nothing for that subsequent effort but it still cost me two days of lost work. On top of that, my time languishing at home with my wife that Monday and Tuesday, who was sick with the cold, led to me catching a cold that manifested Wednesday night. So I only worked on Wednesday that week and took sick leave Thursday and Friday.

Frustrated with these results, I mustered enough energy Thursday morning to take the car to the dealer mechanic to get the mud guard fixed properly. Halfway there, the "check engine" light flared. So I had the mechanic run a full diagnostic check to isolate the cause of this behavior. He determined that cylinder 1 had significantly low pressure but said he could not say with certainty the cause of it. He recommended either a head repair or a used engine replacement. At least he fixed the blasted mud guard reasonably well.

In the words of Maverick: "It had just been a shitty week for me from the beginning."

So here I am rather befuddled and groping for affordable solutions to problems that seem to stump the so-called "experts"!

On a positive note, I changed the transmission fluid today at my usual Lubrication Specialists place since it was due anyway. We confirmed via the plug magnet that there was no cause for alarm with the transmission system, i.e. no unexpected contaminants indicating abnormal wear. This is important in making the decision of what to do next. If the transmission was shot, I was going to shoot the car!

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Mynock
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Re: Major Car Decision--Repair or Replace?

Postby Mynock » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:56 am

So loss of power came after the timing belt change that you did due to leaky seals. I'd bet money that this is a head gasket issue. Pull the dipstick out and look at the oil. Is it light tan in color?
"Know thyself, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories."
--Sun Tzu


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