"Surprise, cockfags!"

[Duncan Edwards]

Sorry guys but I have to say this.

It's ridiculous how you Americans see the world outside the America. You see it very differently than it looks from another sites. You see what you want to see or what you want to believe in...

No argument from me about that. I've traveled a bit and there is no question that Americans tend to view the world in a very Americancentric fashion. But what other frame of reference do we have? The only foreign television we might see is British comedy. Not really much to build a cosmopolitan society on. We don't sit around all day like the French reading Voltaire and debating. We are a nation of immigrants who lose our connections with the old countries rather quickly.

But in the modern world the "fight against terrorism" became a good excuse for virtually anything: murders, war, violation of basic human rights. With today's technologies of brain washing it's so easy to point at anybody (any country, religion, nation) and proclaim them terrorists, then to do anything the government wants. And the crowds will applaud, "how nice! we killed another thousand (or million) of terrorists!"

I realize you are trying to make a point but I would take some exception with this. We Americans and our close friends like Britan and Israel have been targets for too long. Hijackings, bombings, and assasination attempts have crowded our media since I was very young and made us a trifle jumpy. Now we know we face an utterly ruthless foe that will happily incinerate or poison an entire city when they can get the right tools. Not only does this make us nervous but it impinges on freedoms that few if any other nations in this world have enjoyed as we do. For our entire history Americans have never experienced a corrupt and totalitarian regime as you have.

Seriously, today's world is much more resembles the one described by George Orwell in his "Nineteen Eighty-Four" than you want to believe.

Here I think you are suffering from a bad view in your own part of the world. Your large and totally xenophobic former masters to the north are trying to drag Ukraine back into the fold. In your position I'd be looking over my shoulder as well.

Billie, please understand that my response comes with the highest regard for you as an educated and intelligent person. Like most internet debates I doubt we will change any minds or reach any real conclusion but it is nice to discuss things like adults.

[Kookus]

We Americans and our close friends like Britan and Israel have been targets for too long.

No offense to anyone who may hold feelings for the state, but, if Israel counts as a "friend", we must have a short list of enemies. I understand that she benefits greatly from her relationship with America and, in that regard, America can be counted as her friend, but I dispute the idea that the relationship is in any way mutually beneficial. Our blind support for what would quickly be labeled a terrorist state if the controlling theocracy didn't share quite a bit of history with the dominant religion of our country, while also having the distinction of "not being as bad as those guys over there", is part of why we have so much trouble in that region. Double standards tend to piss people off when they're on the shit end of the stick -- and don't kid yourself: there's always a stinky end.

/threadjack

[Mynock]

I realize you are trying to make a point but I would take some exception with this. We Americans and our close friends like Britan and Israel have been targets for too long.

Exactly. And why have we become targets? Because we talk too much and do too little. Attempting to come to a peaceful and diplomatic solution before turning to violence is a good thing, but in the last few decades we've taken our attempts too far. We extend the hand of peace, they bomb us, and then we stupidly stick out our hand and try again instead of doing what has to be done. We've got enough men, planes, tanks and guns to literally wipe any of these little shithole countries off the map, and yet we continue to let them fuck with us. Why? Because the rest of the world ignorantly calls us bullies if we attempt to defend ourselves.
If somebody walks up to me in a bar and hits me, I don't care if I outweigh the little bastard by 100 lbs. I wipe the bar with his face, throw him to the ground, kick him in the ribs to make sure his stays down, and then point at him and say "That's what you get for fucking with me". Does that make me a bully? Maybe in the eyes of some, but I'd rather be a bully then a victim any day.

[Aiko]

And why have we become targets? Because we talk too much and do too little.

Following that logic any nation that talks more and does less should be more likely to become a target. I don't think so.

We've got enough men, planes, tanks and guns to literally wipe any of these little shithole countries off the map, and yet we continue to let them fuck with us.

Exactly which countries would you like to wipe off the map? Killing how many innocent lives can you justify for ridding the world of how many terrorists?

[Duncan Edwards]

We Americans and our close friends like Britan and Israel have been targets for too long.

No offense to anyone who may hold feelings for the state, but, if Israel counts as a "friend", we must have a short list of enemies.

None taken. I'd have been surprised if someone hadn't mentioned it. At first glance it is certainly an argument one could make.

I understand that she benefits greatly from her relationship with America and, in that regard, America can be counted as her friend, but I dispute the idea that the relationship is in any way mutually beneficial.

You could say something like that about most of our "friends" and many of of our adversaries over the last hundred years.

Our blind support for what would quickly be labeled a terrorist state if the controlling theocracy didn't share quite a bit of history with the dominant religion of our country, while also having the distinction of "not being as bad as those guys over there", is part of why we have so much trouble in that region. Double standards tend to piss people off when they're on the shit end of the stick -- and don't kid yourself: there's always a stinky end.

The first time I visited the region I was indeed blindly pro-Israel. After witnessing first hand how they treated the indigenous Arabs I lost some of my enthusiasm for the place. Yes, they will cause us a lot of trouble over time. It took me a while to understand the nature of the realtionship between Israel and its supporters and Israel and it's enemies. As you might expect it runs much deeper than what you will get from a one hour documentary on the History channel. If you want to save that one for later I can babble on for hours about it.

/threadjack[/quote]

[Billie Bonce]

I realize you are trying to make a point but I would take some exception with this. We Americans and our close friends like Britan and Israel have been targets for too long.

From your point of view you are targets. From the point of view of a significant part of the world all the mentioned countries are aggressors. At least, they behave like aggressors in certain parts of the world. And I completely agree to Kookus - Israel is a bad example.

Not only does this make us nervous but it impinges on freedoms that few if any other nations in this world have enjoyed as we do. For our entire history Americans have never experienced a corrupt and totalitarian regime as you have.

Seriously, I don't know what freedoms you are talking about. From what I read here on QSF forum, as well as on DS and other forums, from what I see in American movies - I can't tell you have more freedom than we have. Previously I lived under a totalitarian regime, now I live under totally corrupt regime, I also chanced to work in Germany for some time, and I can conclude that there are certain rules everywhere, the rules are different, but the result is the same - if one doesn't obeys the rules, he gets serious problems.

Here I think you are suffering from a bad view in your own part of the world. Your large and totally xenophobic former masters to the north are trying to drag Ukraine back into the fold. In your position I'd be looking over my shoulder as well.

Maybe you are right. But I had to be more specific in what I tried to tell.

Say, the privacy of telephone calls was considered as one of the human rights. But now this right is canceled. In the most law-loyal countries there are new laws now. E.g., in Germany all the telephone calls are recorded and kept for 6 months. The reason? Fight against terrorism.

Not to say about the Internet. Todays technologies give the great possibility to store and analyze everything. Each byte of information that passes through the territory of the USA (and, probably, Russia and Israel, too) is carefully stored and sorted. No, people don't look into this information. Until the subject becomes interesting for some reason. Then each his word written in e-mail or messenger may be used against him.

The Big Brother is watching us

Billie, please understand that my response comes with the highest regard for you as an educated and intelligent person. Like most internet debates I doubt we will change any minds or reach any real conclusion but it is nice to discuss things like adults.

I understand and highly appreciate this.

If somebody walks up to me in a bar and hits me, I don't care if I outweigh the little bastard by 100 lbs. I wipe the bar with his face, throw him to the ground, kick him in the ribs to make sure his stays down, and then point at him and say "That's what you get for fucking with me". Does that make me a bully? Maybe in the eyes of some, but I'd rather be a bully then a victim any day.

I'll say the same as I said to Duncan, but in different words.
You didn't make an attempt to hear that guy before he tried to hit you. You have no idea that you ran over his cat with your big truck, you scared to death his children as you honked at them when they were crossing the street in front of your truck (you thought they were walking too slowly), and finally you sprayed dirty water all over his wife's new dress when you were driving across the puddle near his home. You didn't even noticed all that because in your opinion he is no more than a shitty little bastard. Now you easily beat him and feel yourself a hero. But don't be surprised that in the night he will throw stones in your windows.

[Duncan Edwards]

Seriously, I don't know what freedoms you are talking about. From what I read here on QSF forum, as well as on DS and other forums, from what I see in American movies - I can't tell you have more freedom than we have. Previously I lived under a totalitarian regime, now I live under totally corrupt regime, I also chanced to work in Germany for some time, and I can conclude that there are certain rules everywhere, the rules are different, but the result is the same - if one doesn't obeys the rules, he gets serious problems.

I'll touch on this just a bit. Not because it really matters but just to explain myself. In spite of all the crabbing Americans do about government interference in things we don't have to put up with a fraction of the trouble that people even in most places do. The French banned headscarves for Muslim schoolgirls and the Swiss banned minarets on Mosques. Such things would be unthinkable and impossible here. We regard taxes as an infringment on personal freedom and have a relatively low tax burden compared to others. I can carry my gun, invest my money, drive my truck anywhere, and farm my own land any way I want.

But that's not really what I'm talking about. Americans now have to live in fear of both terrorists and the new methods that will be required to combat them. Compared to much of the world we have lived in a ridiculously secure and happy place. All of that is under threat now and this is the true loss. Getting on a plane used to be like catching a bus. You can't enter DisneyWorld now without having your stuff searched. This is what bothers Americans most even if they aren't aware of it.

Say, the privacy of telephone calls was considered as one of the human rights. But now this right is canceled. In the most law-loyal countries there are new laws now. E.g., in Germany all the telephone calls are recorded and kept for 6 months. The reason? Fight against terrorism.

Not in the US. Even the FBI has to go to a special terror judge to get a warrant for a single wiretap. Attempts to have general listening take place in this country resulted in civil libertarians trying to push for criminial charges against phone company executives.

If somebody walks up to me in a bar and hits me, I don't care if I outweigh the little bastard by 100 lbs. I wipe the bar with his face, throw him to the ground, kick him in the ribs to make sure his stays down, and then point at him and say "That's what you get for fucking with me". Does that make me a bully? Maybe in the eyes of some, but I'd rather be a bully then a victim any day.

I'll say the same as I said to Duncan, but in different words.
You didn't make an attempt to hear that guy before he tried to hit you...

Some of those little guys never spoke to us. They just looked for the biggest guy in the room to start a fight with in order to rally attention to their cause. Osama bin Laden doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself. All he is interested in is becoming some kind of modern Saladdin and sitting on a historical throne as a pan-Arab hero. Here there is nothing to negotiate with. His destruction is the only possible solution.

You didn't even noticed all that because in your opinion he is no more than a shitty little bastard. Now you easily beat him and feel yourself a hero. But don't be surprised that in the night he will throw stones in your windows.

And here we have an elephant problem. The elephant doesn't see all the little creatures he steps on as he walks around. Does this make the elephant a bad creature?

[Billie Bonce]

Americans now have to live in fear of both terrorists and the new methods that will be required to combat them. Compared to much of the world we have lived in a ridiculously secure and happy place. All of that is under threat now and this is the true loss. Getting on a plane used to be like catching a bus. You can't enter DisneyWorld now without having your stuff searched. This is what bothers Americans most even if they aren't aware of it.

I understand it. This is a very painful loss. Everyone feels it.

Some of those little guys never spoke to us. They just looked for the biggest guy in the room to start a fight with in order to rally attention to their cause. Osama bin Laden doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself. All he is interested in is becoming some kind of modern Saladdin and sitting on a historical throne as a pan-Arab hero. Here there is nothing to negotiate with. His destruction is the only possible solution.

Osama bin Laden is really a moral monster. But his physical destruction would do nothing good - he would become an idol and many his followers would appear. To defeat him you have to bring him into discredit, and you need a bright personality to oppose him. The time will show if your president can become such a personality. Your former president undoubtedly couldn't.

And here we have an elephant problem. The elephant doesn't see all the little creatures he steps on as he walks around. Does this make the elephant a bad creature?

I see, I see. Just don't pretend that when the elephant walks his goal is to take care of all that little creatures (say, to protect them from a tiger). He walks around to solve his own problems - to find food and water, and to scratch his back if it's itching.

[Lomax]

We've got enough men, planes, tanks and guns to literally wipe any of these little shithole countries off the map.

Has it occurred to you that if America was wiped off the map most of today's extremists would have no option but to return to peaceful lives?

Not that I'm suggesting we try that; but I do sometimes feel that the biggest obstacle to world peace is the USA.

Generally, I'm a peaceable sort of guy. But if a bunch of Americans came over here and tried to tell me, at gunpoint, how I should run my own country, I would almost certainly take violent exception. And I'm sure I have many equivalents in Afghanistan. American gung-ho is part of the problem.

And yes, the fact that the British generally tag along (mainly because our PM - whoever he may be - has his tongue permanently stuck up the arse of the US President - whoever he may be) is part of the problem as well.

No; I don't have a solution to all the world's problems. But I'm quite certain that the solution is NOT a higher body-count.

[Lomax]

I am a fan of the Tennessee Titans football team. I have never missed a single minute of any game they have ever played in their home stadium. Win or lose, good or bad, rain or shine, I'm always there. I will never agree that my team should accept a negotiated settlement for any contest. Do not speak to me about the supposed superiority of any other team because I won't listen. The word fan is derived from the word fanatic. I am indeed fanatical about my team. In similar fashion I don't expect the fanatics of the other side to simply agree that I am right so a battle must be held on the field to determine who is correct.

I'm a New Orleans Saints fan myself (we're going to implode again, I just know it)...

But your analogy is false. After a football game, everyone goes home. There is a zero body-count.