-

[mudxdresser]

Please allow me to correct what is not realized by many in the US since the Supreme Court ruled in Atwater vs Lago Vista. Probable cause, of any kind, even the most trivial traffic violation, now allows you to be arrested at the officer's discretion. And the Supreme Court further said that whatever the officer did that might be inappropriate immediately prior to the arrest is not subject to judicial review.

The bottom line that most folks in the US are not aware of, if you commit as much as the most trivial misdemeanor such as crossing a white line in on the highway (their favorite anytime, anywhere, anybody offense), you can be arrested at the officer's sole discretion since Atwater vs Lago Vista. The only limiting factor is the internal procedures of the police organization the officer works for.

So, what is not realized is that if you have a police encounter and the officer would like to cost you $5000 or so, throw you in jail for the night, and get a free search of your person and vehicle, there is nothing in US law to stop him. Your lawyer will get you out and beat whatever charge they come up with if you keep your mouth totally shut, however, you will still be out the money for the lawyer, whatever disease you caught in jail, and whatever penalty your employer of the moment or future decides to impose upon you for having an arrest record.

Oh, and did I mention that they get to torture you legally in many ways along the way? There is no judicial recourse for them wrenching your shoulders out of socket when they place your arms behind your back. They are always careful never to leave marks on your wrists when they tighten those cuffs too tight. Ever noticed how jail cells have a little pool float mattress that is magically too short and narrow for a normal human, how the steel seat is just slightly too short to sit on properly, how the blanket is too short to cover both your toes and your neck, how the light is on all night?

The point is, an officer in the US is empowered to impose all of this on his own authority if he has probable cause. That is what you are contending with...

[Allusion Namiboo]

^^With all due respect that video is bullshit and gives a very bad impression of American law enforcement.
If a cop has to follow you for 30+ seconds with lights and siren on before you in any way acknowledge the fact he's behind you, while you and your buddies are jumping around and making (to a police officer) extremely suspicious movements, that gives the officer probable cause to search your vehicle.
Also, I'd like to add that I've been pulled over quite a few times (had and to an extent still have a bad case of lead foot disease. ) and have never had a cop behave that way towards me. Local or State, they've always been professional and courteous.

Hahaha... cross the Delaware and the entire situation changes. I'm not going to get started on the attitude of most NJSP that I've dealt with, but I will focus on one scenario in particular. I was on Interstate 80 last year and was haulin' pretty good... maybe 70 or 75 MPH in the traveling lane. I was in a bit of a hurry to get home, though normally I wouldn't exceed 80 MPH. I get passed up by a grey Dodge Charger with alloy rims, no window tint, no antennas and a person wearing street clothing and no computer in the dashboard. (in other words, the car had absolutely zero of being a police vehicle, aside from a little set of LED lights tucked behind the grille that I assumed POV EMS/Fire... or maybe a whackjob) in I merged into the passing lane got behind him to safe some fuel in the draft, and he slowly started creeping his speed up... 85... 90... 95... 100... 105... and right as he started pulling away from me at 108 (the car I was driving at the time had an absurdly low top speed =.=) he swerved into the travelling lane, jammed on his brakes, darted back into the passing lane and then turned on a pair of red lights in his grille and a red/blue flipdown visor light.

I didn't stop. I slowed down to the speed limit and stood in the middle lane. Soon he started 'chirping' his siren, then just left it blaring on wail. Since I DIDN'T have a cell phone at the time, I wasn't able to contact the New Jersey State Police to see if there was an actual unit attempting a stop matching my vehicle description and plate number at mile marker 68-ish. A few miles down the road (maybe 4 or 5 minutes of driving), a pair of marked units were waiting for me (blocking the road completely, I might add), and then I finally stopped.

They screamed at me, pointed their guns, get out of the vehicle, hands up... frisked me, detained me, told me to get in the back of their car (but didn't handcuff me) and asked me why the hell I didn't stop, and why the hell I was exceeding the speed limit by over 30 MPH. My explanation was pretty simple; when I started following the Charger (which was indeed driven by a plain-clothes Trooper) he was only going 80 MPH. I didn't notice his speed creeping up until I was reaching my car's top speed, and if he was a cop, why would he drive so fast at 3:30 in the morning? Since it was late, and this, for-all-I-knew 'civilian' was attempting to stop me, I had reasonable belief that this person may be a fake cop trying to rob me at gunpoint (or worse), and since I couldn't call 911 to verify I was being stopped by an actual police officer, it was better for my own safety to continue my course until an actual cop DID notice the suspicious activity taking place on the empty highway.

The supervisor and everything was called out. But I made it clear to them that if I had actual reason to believe that the person ordering me to stop was indeed an actual public safety official, I would have obliged without any complaint. But since he WASN'T, and his little 'bait' maneuver was EXTREMELY suspicious, I felt that stopping without anybody else around would be a high risk to my life and safety.


....an hour and a half later, I was let off with "Only" a ticket for doing 74 MPH in a 65. I didn't just tuck my tail between my legs and suffer the insurance penalties of a speeding ticket (where you REALLY pay), and had it reduced to "Impeding traffic" after explaining the whole charade to the prosecutor. The fine was higher, but no points.

Could that have gone a lot smoother? Hell yes it could have, but I also could have ended up being found dead with a bullet in my skull on the side of the road later that morning, missing only my wallet and my laptop and CD collection. (the only valuables I was carrying at the time) Maybe I'm a little bit paranoid, but in a state that's only more firearm-friendly than Nazifornia and the District of Corruption who makes it a felony to have a firearm of any kind in your vehicle, (unless your car has a trunk, mine's a hatchback) I feel completely naked - so I have a right to question the legitimacy of the unmarked unit attempting to stop me in the name of my own safety. And yes - cases of people being robbed/shot after being stopped by a "police car" are NOT unheard of in The Garbage State.

Moral of the story? Legally speaking, you don't HAVE to stop for a cop if you don't think it's a cop... but you better be prepared to explain why you didn't think he was a cop at least 5 times after you finally ARE stopped by marked units. Also, unmarked vehicles shouldn't do traffic patrol. =-=

[Nessie]

But I made it clear to them that if I had actual reason to believe that the person ordering me to stop was indeed an actual public safety official, I would have obliged without any complaint.

I'm not the kind of driver who gets stopped...my feet are definitely not lead...but there have been cases of bad buys posing as cops so that they can do bad things, like rob people or rape women. I always figure that unless I'm already on a busy freeway where the whole world will drive by, if I am not sure that's really a cop, I'll just drive real slow and non-threateningly to the nearest convenience store, gas station, or mall, where other people can see what happens.

'Cause if the car and the cop just don't look enough like a cop car and a cop...well, could be a clue. That it ain't a cop car. Or a cop.

Although that's not a universal law. I guess this non-cop looked pretty real.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... hours.html

Nessie

[bart1997]

.

[Duncan Edwards]

But getting arrested by traffic police for violation of some traffic law??? Well, horray for the old continent!

If you ever come for a visit I wouldn't be too concerned. Somehow myself and everyone I know have managed to go 47 years without any undue grief from law enforcement. Forget about mud. After reading some of these posts I should expect a major asswhoop on the way home from work.

[Northerner]

I have never had a negative experience with American law enforcement, as was portrayed in the over-dramatized video I linked. I just think its important for Americans to know that you can refuse to consent to a search, at least verbally.

I read about Atwater vs Lago Vista as mudxdresser suggested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwater_v._City_of_Lago_Vista. Incredible.

In Atwater vs Lago Vista, a misdemeanor (seat belt) violation was key to the court's decision. If I was "randomly" stopped, and my trunk was full of quicksand-type gear, I would probably tell the officer I do not consent to any search. How that would work out for me probably depends on the moral character of the police officer more than anything else. It seems they generally have discretion to try anything they want, especially if you committed a misdemeanor.

[Allusion Namiboo]

But they still need to get in front of you, so you are able to read their messageboard that is attached at the rear-window.

Not here. When you see flashing red lights or a combination of red and any other color, you're supposed to pull over. You're never given a chance to see who's trying to stop you, UNLESS they already passed you once. They pull behind you and approach from the rear, on the driver's side. Which is stupid (the approaching from the driver's side part), since traffic doesn't typically yield for ANY kind of public safety official and they risk getting mowed down by a Suburban piloted by a 17-year-old girl who's texting while driving.

Sirens also mean stop, no matter what.

You don't have to pull over for blue; it's a courtesy color for volunteer firefighters and EMT's. It's frowned on that you don't yield to them, but legally you're not obliged to. (And subsequently, almost nobody stops for blue-only lights)

I love the sign idea that the UK, Japan, China and other countries use. Why not here, where there's like 10 times more whackers per capita?

[Nessie]

I read about Atwater vs Lago Vista as mudxdresser suggested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atwater_v._City_of_Lago_Vista. Incredible.

Geesh. I suppose you CAN be arrested for not wearing seat belts...but I can't believe that nobody even addressed the police officer's blatantly abusive and out-of-line behavior.

If that's how he behaves during small, routine traffic stops involving citizens who pose no real threat, that guy is not fit to even be a police officer. Somebody, please, fire his incompetent, emotionally unstable butt.

Nessie

[Kookus]

^^With all due respect that video is bullshit and gives a very bad impression of American law enforcement.

To be fair, the only way in which I see that the linked video is in any way misleading is that, if this had been a real-world situation, the driver would have been tazed, detained, and probably charged with a litany of offenses, including "eluding a peace officer" and "resisting arrest". Ten years ago, sure, that situation may have played out as depicted. In this day and age, though, you will go to jail if you argue with the police -- just a fact of life.

Here's an oldie, but a goodie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFXNcKjqdg