Quicksand Fans

I'm making this a new topic so as not to further derail Mr. Edward's thread (sorry about that Duncan).

It seems like there are a LOT of misconceptions out there about gun ownership in America, probably because if you're not part of the 'culture' the only contact you've had with a firearm is watching news articles about violence and seeing people get blown away in movies.

This is NOT what the majority of gun owners in America today are interested in. There are plenty entertaining, challenging and fun things you can do with a firearm that don't involve killing your fellow man, and we do them all in a safe responsible manner.

For every asshole shooting up a school, there's millions of us out in the woods Deer hunting in the fall. For every idiot robbing a convience store there's millions of us just hanging out at the range with our friends having a good time punching holes in paper targets (and exploding the occasional water melon). For every dirtbag that otherwise uses a gun to do their fellow human beings evil, there's millions of us that don't.

I know for some of you a firearm might seem like this deadly exotic thing that's going to jump off the table, load itself and shoot you, but for someone like me who was raised around them (all of the men and most of the women in my family are hunters) they're simply a part of our lifestyle and not that big a deal. They're just like a lot of other things you encounter on a daily basis. Use it right, and it's perfectly safe. Use it wrong and it can kill you or someone else.

I love to hunt. It gives me a chance to enjoy the outdoors and a sense of pride that I'm both carrying on a tradition almost as old as mankind itself and providing for myself without having to be lazy and go to the grocery store.

I'd say about 95% of the rounds I've shot off in my life have been at one target range or another, just hanging out with my buddies, shooting the shit, showing off any new hardware we pickedup lately, and trying to see who can peg the can off the fence post at 300 yards (video games make shots like that look so easy hahaha).

Do I carry a firearm for self defense? Do I keep a loaded firearm in my house for home defense purposes? Yes, to both, for reasons I'd rather keep private. Will I use those guns to defend myself if need be? Yes, in the same way someone who doesn't know how to use a gun to defend themselves will grab a random blunt object and beat someone over the head with it if they're being attacked. Do I want to have to use it? No. I hope I go to my grave never having put that fast draw I practice once a month to use.

Do I own an "assault weapon"(I'm putting that in quotations because I still don't understand that term--how is it an assult weapon if I never have and never intend to assault anyone with it?!)? Yes, several actually. Do I need to own an "assault weapon"? No. Then why do I? I'll come clean.....at heart I'm just an overgrown kid who still loves playing GI Joe. Now that I'm an adult I just fancy a toy that's a little more spring loaded. At the risk of hurting anyone else's big bad macho image, I'm going to say that the vast majority of people who own "assault weapons" own them for the exact same reason I do. Nothing makes me feel like more of a badass then dumping an entire 30 round mag out of my AR in about 10 seconds. Hot brass raining around your feet, gun smoke pouring out of the ejection port, feelig the heat coming off the barrel......I feel sorry for anyone who never gets to try this.

All I'm trying to say is, don't judge what you don't understand, and don't knock it till you've tried it. If you can that is....I know some of you hail from coutries that won't let you and that sucks. If you have the opportunity to get some trigger time in though, do it! It's not as dangerous as you've probably been lead to belive and what little danger there is can be further negated by having an ounce of common sense.

Feel free to discuss and take this thread wherever.

Check out this interesting humorous video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q9UIHYLecA

I will never forget the time I went with some navy gunner's mates out to an unofficial range in CA. We got out there with rifles, pistols, and jugs of water to do some target shooting. About the time we were low on ammo, a gang of Hispanic guys showed up with AK47's. The absolute smallest guy they had came to the front to shoot his on full auto. We watched in horror as his rifle bounced him backwards about 3 feet. (his rounds being merely limited to the general direction of his target) That's when we felt it was *just* past time to go.

The USA is in most ways a free country. Fortunately or not, no part of our government is allowed to deport people who are idiots. Because of that, we do get a lot of gun deaths, but we get a lot of drug deaths, auto deaths, murders and suicides too. Here, at least, most people are given a chance to LIVE before they die.

Mynock wrote:All I'm trying to say is, don't judge what you don't understand, and don't knock it till you've tried it. If you can that is....I know some of you hail from coutries that won't let you and that sucks.

If you mean countries that prohibit private possession of fully-automatic firearms, then yes, that would include mine. There's no rational reason for people to have them, and the law prevents them from getting into circulation in the first place. Please understand that before judging other countries and their laws.

Aiko wrote:

Mynock wrote:All I'm trying to say is, don't judge what you don't understand, and don't knock it till you've tried it. If you can that is....I know some of you hail from coutries that won't let you and that sucks.

If you mean countries that prohibit private possession of fully-automatic firearms, then yes, that would include mine. There's no rational reason for people to have them, and the law prevents them from getting into circulation in the first place. Please understand that before judging other countries and their laws.

Just so you know, there are a LOT of open-minded US citizens that don't look down on other countries. (We just tend to be the quiet sort, as a group)

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schlamm wrote:Well, when things like what is going on in Egypt happen, the difference between being a victim or not is going to come down to enforcing peace via superior firepower...
I mean no disrespect Aiko and it is good you live in such a lovely Utopia, the rest of us who deal with crime, illegal immigrants who would take anything and everything and a population of people with no respect for one another's property it would be fool hardy to sit and wait for the authorities to show up when bad things start to happen.
Where are the police in Egypt?
Where are the police in Mexico?
I cannot think of a better example than Mexico in that the general population is prohibited from owning a gun of any kind. They sit there like sheep awaiting the slaughter while the cartels flaunt there superiority over the local police knowing full well that no one can be of any assistance to the police as throwing tortillas at someone holding an AK-47 is less than an effective strategy. 6,000 deaths in Ciudad Obregon at the hands of the drug cartels in the past 3 years...criminals love totalitarian countries who fear their own citizens owning guns as they alone hold the weapons, their victims are again sheep for the shearing with little more to do than hand wringing and dialing a useless number for the police who aren't coming.

I view owning a gun to be much like having car insurance, one does not need it unless unusual circumstances arise and it is a far better thing to have more coverage than one needs than to have none at all should a situation present itself where it IS needed.

When I said that there is no reason for people to have fully-automatic guns, I was referring to the people in my country, which happens to be Austria, a peaceful stable democracy in Central Europe. I was not talking about anywhere else (unlike Mynock), and I was not implying that the same laws should be applied elsewhere. Here, it works fine, and I see absolutely no need for that sort of "insurance" or for lifting restrictions on guns.

I might indeed feel differently about it, if I lived in.. say... Egypt. But I don't, and neither do you, so what does the situation there have to do with either one of us? Or do you think something like that could realistically happen where you live?

Pretty clearly, the issue of guns is a complicated one. A VERY complicated one. Its also a very emotional one and that is part of the problem. It is pretty hard to argue that there is no problem relating to firearms in the USA. We DO have criminals with guns. We DO have unstable people with guns. We DO have people with guns who are clueless how to use them. We DO have people who own guns and leave them where children can find them. And, we DO have a society in which many people quite realistically feel they need them.

We also have a very large proportion of people who cannot or will not look at the entire problem as a whole. Instead, they look at a part of the problem only. On one side, people want to ban all guns, or perhaps all of some classes of guns. On the other side there are people who want to be able to own any kind of firearm, presumably even 16 inch naval cannons. (Actually, that would be kind of cool, as it would make a really loud noise!) I think there are people who fear making any kind of change because they are afraid that will oen the floodgates to more change than they would like.

But there IS a problem. While my own opinion on the solution is pretty much irrelevent, it seems to me that there might be SOME things that could go a long way toward ameliorating the problem that all sides (all reasonable sides) could accept. For example, I am told that it is possible to build a gun with a sensor in the trigger that could read the fingerprint of the finger squeezing it, and prevent it being used if the print does not match that of the authorized user. I have no idea if that really works, and certainly it might introduce other issues, but such a feature certainly ought to stop the tragedies that happen when a 5 year old finds a gun.

It seems to me that what we need is more willingness to actually look at solving the real problems that are pretty clearly there.

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Just tossing in my two cents...

As a Canadian, who doesn't own a firearm, although I have fired them on occasion at the range of a local sprotsman's club... this matter is certainly different here. While handguns are severely restricted... not banned, but their use is limited to ranges etc. as is their transport - rifles and shotguns are permitted fairly freely. Lots of paperwork, of course... and one can't just buy new ones and ammo over the counter without more paperwork, but they are fairly commonplace, especially in the rural and northern regions.

Because of our smaller population, leaning more towards an urban environment, a far lower percentage of folks here actually own or use firearms on a regular basis... hence the lack of overall gun culture, as if they were a normal part of everyone's lives. The hunters who do also don't see the need for high capacity magazines, which have been banned to an extent here. I think only 10 round ones for rifles are permitted, but I could be wrong on that.

The issue of gun ownership here tends to be argued on an urban versus rural basis just for that reason. Those in our cities as a whole don't see a need for firearms to exist... while those who hunt, protect their livestock etc. have a very different view.

I agree the issue is a complex one... the mere presense of firearms doesn't automatically lead to more shootings of people... in Switzerland, everyone of age to 60 or so is part of the country's militia, and need to have on hand fully automatic assault rifles in their home, close by and ready to go in case of an emergency call out of troops. Interestingly, the Swiss aren't gunning themselves down in the street in record numbers because of the availability of guns.

At the same time, I cannot fathom the mentality which leads to record sales of weapons used in the news... the Arizona shooting saw record sales in Glocks and those 30 round clips... in case they were banned. To me, this goes beyond mere ownership to touch on something unsettling in society.... (besides, who the hell needs a 30 round clip to go target shooting? Is a pair of 15 round ones not sufficient? Or does the second needed to reload too long for some folks?)

Anyway... I'm not claiming to be an expert, but thought I'd just toss that in.

It is a complex matter indeed.