Quicksand Fans

With the increased popularity of cryptocurrencies such as the ever-growing Bitcoin (BTC), Litecoin (LTC), etc, has there been any thought or consideration from any of the producers here to accept payment for their media using these forms of payment? I know that this community may be small in relation to other industries but this could be an interesting and inviting way to branch out with their sales for some of us who have interest in both supporting this kind of payment type and also using it to purchase the offerings from our producers here where we wouldn't normally feel comfortable using a traditional credit card or other name-brand electronic transfer. I'm interested in the communities thoughts and feedback from members and even producers.

awdc wrote:With the increased popularity of cryptocurrencies such as the ever-growing Bitcoin (BTC), Litecoin (LTC), etc, has there been any thought or consideration from any of the producers here to accept payment for their media using these forms of payment? I know that this community may be small in relation to other industries but this could be an interesting and inviting way to branch out with their sales for some of us who have interest in both supporting this kind of payment type and also using it to purchase the offerings from our producers here where we wouldn't normally feel comfortable using a traditional credit card or other name-brand electronic transfer. I'm interested in the communities thoughts and feedback from members and even producers.

For myself the answwer is negative. The use of these currencies would significantly slow down a transaction because, for the foreseeable future an order would not be fillable until the bitcoin (or whatever) was converted to dollars. Iam aware that some claim that these currencies are some sort of "hedge" against inflation but the very fact that they themselves fluctuate in valau means, by definition, that they are not stable. And the fact that they fluctuate more than traditional currencies means, also by definition, that they are less stable than the traditional currencies.

I think Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have several properties that would make them preferable over other payment methods for this community:
- Minimal (in most cases optional) fees
- Anonymity
- No regulation (Nobody to lock you out if they do not like what you are selling.)

Fred588 wrote:Iam aware that some claim that these currencies are some sort of "hedge" against inflation but the very fact that they themselves fluctuate in valau means, by definition, that they are not stable. And the fact that they fluctuate more than traditional currencies means, also by definition, that they are less stable than the traditional currencies.

It's true that their exchange rates are not stable. They would need to enter much more widespread use to become stable and not be affected by speculation to the degree that they are today. However it's also true that Bitcoins do not suffer from inflation, simply because there is a fixed amount to ever come into circulation.

I am not an economist but I will attempt to make a few points:

1. While it may be true that fees are minimal, for now at least, fees are not the only cost of using any form of currency to make a transaction. There are costs involved in convenience, safety, and likely other factors.

2. Anonymity with bitcoin appears to be a myth based on recent events.

3. I believe inflation simply means that what a unit of currency will purchase declines. Deflation means it increases. Since there is no inherent value in a bitcoin (you cannot eat one) its value at any point in time is what it will purchase. Having a fixed number of them in circulation is irrelevent. It would be relevent if they were increased arbitrarily but the fact of their being fixed in number does not make the difference.

4. The nature of what I will accept in trade, and I expect most people will accept in trade, is determined by the utility of what is traded to me. I will, and have, accepted services, second-hand clothing, props and decorations, and gift cards as well as money, checks, money orders, and simple cash. I accept these things because, and when I perceive value in what is offered. But note that, with the gift card for example, I will accept cards drawn n business I regularly do business with, and NOT on places I never or rarely do business with. It would be the same with bitcoins.

My two cents worth. How much is that in bitcoins?

Aiko wrote:I think Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have several properties that would make them preferable over other payment methods for this community:
- Minimal (in most cases optional) fees
- Anonymity
- No regulation (Nobody to lock you out if they do not like what you are selling.)

Fred588 wrote:Iam aware that some claim that these currencies are some sort of "hedge" against inflation but the very fact that they themselves fluctuate in valau means, by definition, that they are not stable. And the fact that they fluctuate more than traditional currencies means, also by definition, that they are less stable than the traditional currencies.

It's true that their exchange rates are not stable. They would need to enter much more widespread use to become stable and not be affected by speculation to the degree that they are today. However it's also true that Bitcoins do not suffer from inflation, simply because there is a fixed amount to ever come into circulation.

As things stand today, there are already too many options for purchasing. I long ago drew a line in the sand and decided that if my credit card or PayPal account wouldn't buy it, I'd do without. I don't want any more points of entry to my personal financial information than I already have. Adobe insisted on having my information for billing purposes, now they are paying for my credit protection because they got hacked. In the last calendar year, we've had three instances of a credit card company cancelling our card and replacing it with a new one because of "security concerns." Each of those instances caused disruption in our daily lives as automatic bill pays failed, cards weren't available to make plane reservations, or put gas in the car, or buy groceries, etc. I'm already too damned vulnerable, and I'm not doing anything risky!

Because of this, there are producers here on this forum that I don't do business with. If there's something I really, really, really can't live without, I'll grudgingly dig around in the drawer until I find my checkbook, but usually the "humbug" factor of that stops the process. Again, credit card or PayPal, or not at all. Not that I have any particular allegiance to those institutions, they're just the ones we had when we decided "enough is enough."

So the idea of reaching out to embrace yet another vehicle of electronic currency exchange is, to me, disagreeable. Another account to manage, another point of attack for thieves, another opportunity to lose track of value due to growing pains in an unproven system, another bureaucracy to support.

Fred588 wrote:2. Anonymity with bitcoin appears to be a myth based on recent events.

Not sure which events you are referring to. Whether bitcoins are anonymous or not depends on how they are used. You could compare Wallet IDs to IP addresses - they don't have a name tag on them, but there may be ways to associate them to a person based on other information. Unlike IP addresses however, you can get a new Wallet ID anytime you like.

Fred588 wrote:3. I believe inflation simply means that what a unit of currency will purchase declines. Deflation means it increases. Since there is no inherent value in a bitcoin (you cannot eat one) its value at any point in time is what it will purchase. Having a fixed number of them in circulation is irrelevent. It would be relevent if they were increased arbitrarily but the fact of their being fixed in number does not make the difference.

You cannot eat dollars either. Well, I suppose you could, but it's not a healthy diet. In the long term currencies suffer from inflation because there is constantly more of them being issued. I see inflation as an obscured tax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4yBrxmEOkY). Bitcoin does not have that particular problem. I agree that this is not relevant RIGHT NOW, because the currency is unstable. However when/if Bitcoin becomes more wide-spread and stable, this will become relevant.

Fred588 wrote:My two cents worth. How much is that in bitcoins?

At about 0.000029 BTC right now.

See news stories about Silk Road

Aiko wrote:

Fred588 wrote:2. Anonymity with bitcoin appears to be a myth based on recent events.

Not sure which events you are referring to. Whether bitcoins are anonymous or not depends on how they are used. You could compare Wallet IDs to IP addresses - they don't have a name tag on them, but there may be ways to associate them to a person based on other information. Unlike IP addresses however, you can get a new Wallet ID anytime you like.

Fred588 wrote:3. I believe inflation simply means that what a unit of currency will purchase declines. Deflation means it increases. Since there is no inherent value in a bitcoin (you cannot eat one) its value at any point in time is what it will purchase. Having a fixed number of them in circulation is irrelevent. It would be relevent if they were increased arbitrarily but the fact of their being fixed in number does not make the difference.

You cannot eat dollars either. Well, I suppose you could, but it's not a healthy diet. In the long term currencies suffer from inflation because there is constantly more of them being issued. I see inflation as an obscured tax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4yBrxmEOkY). Bitcoin does not have that particular problem. I agree that this is not relevant RIGHT NOW, because the currency is unstable. However when/if Bitcoin becomes more wide-spread and stable, this will become relevant.

Fred588 wrote:My two cents worth. How much is that in bitcoins?

At about 0.000029 BTC right now.

While Bitcoin likely has a future it hasn't arrived just yet. The amount of effort and risk required of producers to accept it doesn't balance with the tiny amount of business that might be gained. Don't expect them to take it before Amazon.com and others have caught on. Especially when each producer already has multiple payment options that work very well.

There's a word for creating your own currency. I believe it's pronounced "illegal".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar
If you want an alternative to fiat there are options.....mail Fred one of these.

If they remain in existence at all, I suspect there are two ways in which things like digital currency might be used. One I see as legitimate and the other I am highly skeptical of. I am highly skeptical of any form of private currency. As pointed out by Mynock's link, private curency of highly questionable legality. And, even if legal, there is no more, and almost certainly less, basis for a stable value in such things. If someone were to send me a bitcoin I would insist on converting it to US dollars before providing anything in exchange. The other way, suggested my my previous statement, is as a method of transfer of value. It may well be that digital currency could be legitimately used to transfer value internationally while minimizing the costs of currency exchange. within the United States, and also within some other countries, it is already possible to transfer funds from one person (or entity) to another a no cost whatsoever. QuickPay (Chasae Bank) and PopMoney (through many banks, but not through their direct website) are examples of this. Anyone with a checking account in ANY US bank can send funds to anyone elsewith a cheecking account in ANY US bank, at no cost at all, provided at least one of the checking acocunts is with Chase. With PopMoney, both parties must have accounts with a bank that uses the service, but there are a LOT of those. The situation internationally is more difficult, I think as the result of a complex of legal issues from country to country, and these, along with the issue of currency exchange, mean it will likely never be completely free. If digital currencies are set up such that the exchange (and there would be two exchanges) costs less than what is no the case, then they may have a future for that purpose.

Mynock wrote:There's a word for creating your own currency. I believe it's pronounced "illegal".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar
If you want an alternative to fiat there are options.....mail Fred one of these.

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