Kim Possible in Quicksand (adult)

[stefani_tg]

I'm not familiar with the characters you referred to, but I think it's important to make a distinction about how characters age.

First of all, some characters really do age. For example, the characters in the Harry Potter series age significantly, as well as the kids in 'Saved By The Bell'. In both of these cases, the characters end up as adults. So for the purposes of a board like this, (only) the adult version of the characters would be appropriate.

I'm not an expert, but I'm sure there are cases of cartoon characters aging as well. But Kim Possible is not one of those. Other than some anecdotal instances, her character is 15 throughout the vast majority of the series. So in order for her character to be appropriate, some overt aging has to be applied to her. Just saying "imagine she's 18" is not sufficient. A result of her aging has to be present as well. The idea that she's 18 (or more) because the series ended several years ago just doesn't fly.

So the short answer is that if the character doesn't become of age as presented through traditional media, artificial/artistic aging must be convincingly applied for that character to be appropriate here. If the character does age into adulthood, use the adult version.

thanx for the clarification... i have asked one long-standing and experienced member for advice, which is why i asked before posting on their recommendation. but the person who does know the series best, lady of mud, hasn't commented on the story after asking to see it so until then...

assuming it is gonna cause probs here... are there any other venues for adult-orientated fiction of this type? is deviantart more noted for this kinda stuff?

edit: shoulda checked my email and got a reply... seems it may be a bit strong even for deviant art

[Nessie]

Ya know, I'm here and down to lurker-status on the old forum in part because I prefer an environment where I don't see kids, especially prepubescents, in what really is my personal fetish material.

I don't know what the legal risks are. Pretty tiny, I suspect. Maybe, probably, we were all a little paranoid there.

But now I'm here, and there's fewer things on Earth I'm more relieved to be rid of than I am to be rid of that whole kids-and-quicksand issue.

However, now we got a different can of worms going. It's easy enough if you apply this to human beings -- the performer must be 18 at the time of filming -- but Kim is not a human being.

Okay...if the show says she's 15, I'd say no, don't use her. If she ever got to be 18 in the show, though, that version of Kim might be all right. As for revising Kim, she's a copyrighted character...???

(Instead of revising Kim, why not create something original or use something else?)

At DS they sunk the Little Mermaid. In fact they had a whole Disney thing going for awhile. How old was the Little Mermaid? What's 18 in fish years?

Do I still do my Barbie shoots? How old is Barbie? The one in my hand here, I dunno, she certainly could be as young as 16, she's a very believable 18 of course, but she could even be 25 or 30. Barbie is always old enough to get married (they sell her in wedding gowns) and she's smart and mature enough to be an astronaut too (yep, "Astronaut Barbie" was sold in a hot pink space suit).

Does it make a difference if the doll is actually 30 years old? (Got 'em. Don't know if I'd mud 'em.)

I wouldn't use a Bratz though. They definitely look too young.

I will be fine with whatever you decide. I can live without whatever we won't have as a result.

I offer you one thought. When I ran my Yahoo Group, I'd do a visual check on characters submitted for quicksand publication...and imagine that I was a clerk in a convenience store.

There's wiggle room for judgment when you're dealing with non-human, animated, nonexistent people anyway. I really don't consider an explicit scene to be the same as a dramatic one...context and intent does matter...but generally, I'd ask myself:

"Do I need to see I.D. before I sell that girl the cigarettes?"

If I thought I could sell her the pack, she was in. If I wasn't sure if I could sell her the pack, I'd probably still let her sink. But if there was no way I could sell her the pack, she was out.

Use your judgment here, and don't be afraid to stick by what you decide. This isn't vote by majority. You guys are the moderators and it's your turf, and your butt if it goes awry too...and you gotta do what YOU feel okay with. Hey, you want to have fun when you're here.

EDIT: After spending all day crawling around a bog, I did slightly change this from this morning.

Nessie

[quagmire_uk]

I'm not an expert, but I'm sure there are cases of cartoon characters aging as well. But Kim Possible is not one of those. Other than some anecdotal instances, her character is 15 throughout the vast majority of the series. So in order for her character to be appropriate, some overt aging has to be applied to her. Just saying "imagine she's 18" is not sufficient. A result of her aging has to be present as well. The idea that she's 18 (or more) because the series ended several years ago just doesn't fly.

So the short answer is that if the character doesn't become of age as presented through traditional media, artificial/artistic aging must be convincingly applied for that character to be appropriate here. If the character does age into adulthood, use the adult version.

I've no idea whether ipkus1's artwork was any good, and given the very crude stylised nature of Kim Possible I doubt it could have been that sexy anyway. I've no particular desire to see Kim Possible sexy fanart. (You inadvertantly end up with loads anyway if you do a google image search for Kim Possible.) But I've spent the past couple of hours going on a bit of a fact-finding crusade, because I was somewhat incredulous at the claim that Kim Possible is a cartoon series where the characters don't age. Rather than wikipedia I checked out the "Kim Possible wiki".

The page on Kim Possible herself http://kimpossible.wikia.com/wiki/Kim_Possible_(character)#Physical_Description_2 has this factfile on her at the bottom of the page:

Gender: Female
Age: 18
Height: 1 KHU, approximately 5'3"
Weight: 100 lbs(45 kg)
Build: Slim and Sporty
Hair: Red, waist-length, full-bodied
Eyes: Green
Skin: Fair
Ethnic Extraction: Caucasian-American, Polish (Possible=Pozvrik)
Belly Button: Innie

Notice the age 18.

There's also a seperate section all about her age:

Age

Kim's age has been debated quite a bit because nothing has been stated that she was any specific age other than 'high school' age (14-18). However, in the Season 2 episode "Car Trouble," Kim is stated as old enough to get a driver's license, which in most states (the show takes place in the United States) is 15. Kim also had mentioned that Ron had to take 12 years to kiss her in "Homecoming Upset" which indicates that she was 17 as of that episode. As she was graduating from high school and considering college acceptance letters in the series finale "Graduation" would likely put her at a few months shy of 18. During the Episode Hidden Talent, Wade constructs a class ring with a mini Kimmunicator inside of it, the ring had an Emerald in the setting, signaling that Kim's birth month could be May (traditional class rings within the United States are often adorned with the wearer's birthstone).

I am slightly confused by the comment that she would likely be "a few months shy of 18". Does that mean a few months LESS than 18, or a few months past 18? Cause I thought that pretty much everyone is 18 years old by the time they finish their senior year, since senior year is for 17 to 18 year olds. The "fact file" on the page saying she's 18 would suggest that's the general consesnsus too.

Also, the graduation episodes are not some weird thing where it jumped forward 2 or 3 years - it turns out that the entirity of season 4 of Kim Possible it was senior year. That's 21 episodes where she had already passed 17! Episode decription of the first episode of the fourth season:

66 "Ill Suited" February 10, 2007 401 It's Senior Year and Kim and Ron are officially boyfriend and girlfriend. After Bonnie tells him that cheerleaders always date jocks, Ron starts to believe that Kim will dump him unless he becomes one, and "secretly borrows" her battle suit so that he can be on the football team. Meanwhile, Dementor attempts to take control of the suit so that he can use it to his advantage.

Also, back half way-through season two there was a three-part-story/movie "A Stitch in Time" which took place at the beginning of a new school year with new classes and such. Being about 30 episodes after the start of the first season, it's safe to say the characters have gotten older and have moved up a year at school. (Well, dur.)

It also featured time travel and showed a younger version of Kim with braces. Definitive proof that she can get older! Lol.

And the final episodes of season 4 were about her graduating from school and going to college. Youtube link to the "Graduation" story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8sgHz-Trgs

And she looks pretty much the same as she does in any other episode. The art style of Kim Possible is so incredibly stylised it's pretty damn difficult to tell anyone's age. She could be 15 or 30! Here's a screenshot of her standing next to her MOTHER. I can barely tell which is which, the only difference is that Kim is taller than her and has a different hair style:


I'd have quite easily believed that woman next to her was her sister rather than her mother.

So, though the artwork for the characters in Kim Possible never changed to show her getting older, she definately did get older as the series progressed. She may have started out 14 or 15, but over the course of 4 seasons she grew up.

Trying to argue about Kim's age during the series is like trying to argue about the ages of characters in Smallville, Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Dawson's Creek. The characters do not actually look their age (sometimes the actors and actresses for "16 year olds" are already in their twenties!), and you just have to accept the characters as being whatever age the series tells you they are. Characters half way through high-school? Guess they are 16. Oh, they've finished school and gone to university? Guess they are 18. Finished university? Guess they are in mid-twenties then.

Season 3 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a two-episode Graduation story as well. If the series had then ended - rather than going on seven seasons - would you say that fan artwork of Buffy Summers in sexual situations was inappropraite because Buffy Summers is a high school girl and she wasn't 18 for most of the series? It would be a bit daft, given that (1) she was 18 by time season 3 ended and (2) the actress was older anyway. The fact that 30 year olds and 15 year olds look the same in Kim Possible is similar to the older actor/actress situation in live-action shows.

Surely all that is necessary for a Kim Possible artwork to be "legal" is for it to say that it's after she's graduated from school and she's 18. Oh... wait... ipkus1 did say she was 18 right in the first post. He just neglected to mention that it was after finishing school, rather than mid-way through the series or something.

[UberGaijin]

Just putting in my 2 yen here to help with clarity.

I am slightly confused by the comment that she would likely be "a few months shy of 18". Does that mean a few months LESS than 18,

Yes. When I graduated high school, I was a few days shy of 18. Technically 17.97 years old or there-a-bouts.

So, her age in the series falls in the 14-18 years old range.

Anyway, as far as the board owner is concerned:

The age of the character will have to be explicitly raised, and, some explanantion of how the character has changed do to that increase should be provided. Something like -

"Remember Kim Possible? Well, she's grown up now. In fact, she's 19, and in college. Here she is having a sexual encounter with quicksand!"

This seems to match:

Surely all that is necessary for a Kim Possible artwork to be "legal" is for it to say that it's after she's graduated from school and she's 18. Oh... wait... ipkus1 did say she was 18 right in the first post. He just neglected to mention that it was after finishing school, rather than mid-way through the series or something.

...matches very well, in fact. It seems like that there is agreement on the important issue: explicitly age the subject! lol

And on unrelated topics...what the hell is a KHU? Kim Height Unit? And is bellybutton status like blood type for anime characters?

[undergrain1]

Since you need to turn 5 by December 31 to start Kindergarten, you would need to turn 17 by December 31 to start 12th Grade. Someone born on January 1 will be 364 (or 365) days older than a classmate born December 31. Therefore, on June 30, the New Year's kid will be 18 years and 6 months old, while the New Year's Eve kid will be 17 years and 6 months old.

[quagmire_uk]

The way I see it, ipkus1's very first post in which he said she was 18 did the trick. Duncan took a different view since he reckoned that "Kim was substantially younger than eighteen for ninety-nine percent of the series", so when he saw a drawing of "normal-looking" Kim he was rather unconvinced by the 18-year-old claim. But the truth is for a quarter of the series (more than 20 episodes) she was in senior year and at least 17 years old!

In fact, here in the UK the age of consent is 16. In this country she'd be considered "legal" for about half the series! I know that REAL PEOPLE under 18 can't be in porn, and I know that some US States have some convulted laws about the age of consent (the whole "jailbait" situation where 16 and 17 year olds can have sex with each other but can't have sex with 18 year olds), but given that she's a damn cartoon character, I think we really don't need to overthink that kind of thing.

As far as I can tell, the problem here is that the show was on the Disney channel and aimed at kids, and that's what's causing the issues. It's the fact that Kim Possible is ASSOCIATED with kids, and that when the show started she was in her mid-teens. But over the course of the series she grew up, graduated from school and became an adult, so if someone does a drawing of Kim Possible and says "Kim Possible is 18"... well, they aren't wrong. So it's just the preconception caused by the fact that it is a children's show causing the problem.

But if there's problems with Kim Possible, then there's probably problems with The Little Mermaid, Snow White and Alice in Wonderland, and lots of other characters from children's stories. How old is The Little Mermaid? How old is Alice? Yet there's craploads of porn of such characters on the internet without anyone causing a fuss and accusing the makes of doing "loli" (underage) artwork, and we've had a few casese of such characters on Deep Sinking, so... yeah.

There's a fair chance that some of the anime characters PM2K uses in his fakes might have supposedly been 17 or 16 or 15 in the original anime/manga/games they were from. I don't think anyone would accuse PM2K of using "underage" characters though - there's no way to tell, because of the manga-drawing style and someone would have to be familiar with the particular game or anime a character came from to say that actual supposed age of such a character. The "real" age of a cartoon character is pretty arbitrary, unless the artwork is amazingly detailed and realistic.

Oh yeah, Deep Sinking had something featuring Yuffie from Final Fantasy VII. According to the FFVII instruction manual she's 16 in the game. No-one gave a crap, cause the way anime characters are drawn there's no difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old. (In fact in games and anime sometimes there's no difference between a 14 year old and a 24 year old.) She didn't look underage in the artwork, so there was no problem. (Plus, there has since been a movie and a game featuring Yuffie set three/four years later. And Yuffie still looks and behaves like the same old Yuffie, even if she is technically 19/20 at that point. No physical difference except for wearing a slightly different outfit.)

Take the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion. Apparently the heroes and heroines of that series are 14 years old or something, but there's a metric fuckton of Evangelion hentai and porn produced in Japan and the US and Europe (some produced by the offical creators of the series!!!). They never get accused of producing "loli" (underage) stuff. It's just assumed that the porn featuring them is set a few years later when they get around to that kind of thing. It's hard to imagine 20-year-old Rei or Asuka looking much different from the supposedly 14-year-old versions in the series. (The only thing that made them seem "younger" than the other characters was that they were normally endowed rather than having gigantic boobs. And Asuka's slightly bratty behaviour, but Asuka would probably still be a bitch when 20 years old.)

If the cartoon series was something like... oh, I dunno, Rugrats or Dora the Explorer or something, and the characters in a sexual drawing still looked the same as they did in the cartoon, then saying "and these characters have grown up and are 18 years old" wouldn't do the trick. It would be a case of "come on, who are you fooling, they are obviously little kids you pedo!" But in the case of Kim Possible, no "aging" is particulary required. Like South Park or anime/manga or a stick-figure drawing, the extremely stylised nature of the show means there's no real difference between the face and body of "teenage" Kim and her mid-30s mother. The fact that in the series itself she got to 18 years old (or perhaps a month or two short of 18 years), and yet was still drawn the same as when she was 15, means that there's canon in-series proof of what 18-year-old Kim looks like. It's the same as 15 year old Kim. It's also the same as her 35 year old mum.

And on unrelated topics...what the hell is a KHU? Kim Height Unit? And is bellybutton status like blood type for anime characters?

Yeah I was somewhat amused the bellybutton thing. I imagine there's some comment on her bellybutton at some point in the series and they thought it would be amusing to put that in there. And yeah, I guess KHU must be something like Kim Height Unit - it is hard for them to guess the actual height of the characters, so instead they do it by relation to Kim's own height.

[Billie Bonce]

OMG!

Such a substantial discussion! Almost scientific! I guess we can discuss another aspect of the problem.

Why people love doing fanart or manipulations with cartoon or anime characters that they adore? Especially the type of art where those characters either raped or appear in DiD situations...

Something like "Oh, I love that girl, she's so tough, I want to make love with her, I'll show her how tough I am. Oh shit, she's just a cartoon, so I can't. OK, then look what I'll do to you bitch!"

Don't take my words too seriously, I'm not going to blame anyone, and I don't want to struggle against the Rule 34. I'm just curious.

The most funny thing about it is that originally adult characters are not that popular. Take Faye Valentine. She's adult, she's sexy, and she really wants to have sex. Of course, there is porn of her (rule 34!), but she can't compete with Sailor Moon or mentioned above Rei Ayanami. Why?

And well, let's return to Kim Possible. Actually, it's absolutely doesn't matter if she's supposed to be above 18 or not. The only thing that matters is if she's supposed to be underage in the original show then some people want badly to do some adult stuff with her (DiD is an option), and to other people it's no no no. The same with any other characters.

[UberGaijin]

The most funny thing about it is that originally adult characters are not that popular. Take Faye Valentine. She's adult, she's sexy, and she really wants to have sex. Of course, there is porn of her (rule 34!), but she can't compete with Sailor Moon or mentioned above Rei Ayanami. Why?

IIRC, looking at the Japanese reason, it's because Rei and those damn Moonites are viewed as more innocent, pure, virginal when you get right down to it, than the older, more experienced Faye Valentine. Japanese men (and the society in general, I think) place a high value on the concept of purity and youth in general. And the hentai doujinshi writers apparently really want to "get a piece of that", if I may be so crude.



On a semi-unrelated note:

I know that the Japanese place such a high value on children, that alot of tots in current day Japan are considered "spoiled rotten".

...of course, the Japanese definition of "spoiled rotten" is roughly equivalent to "little angels" here in America...especially where I live. I wish I had a lawn so I could tell the little hoodlums to get off of it.

[UberGaijin]

The way I see it, ipkus1's very first post in which he said she was ......also the same as her 35 year old mum.

Yeah, the whole topic in general is apparently very convoluted, with double standards, exceptions and loopholes abound. I am just glad that the conversations about it can be civil.

...but Asuka will always be a bitch.

[Duncan Edwards]

The way I see it, ipkus1's very first post in which he said she was 18 did the trick. Duncan took a different view since he reckoned that "Kim was substantially younger than eighteen for ninety-nine percent of the series", so when he saw a drawing of "normal-looking" Kim he was rather unconvinced by the 18-year-old claim. But the truth is for a quarter of the series (more than 20 episodes) she was in senior year and at least 17 years old!

I don't need to say anything further about this but in the interest of getting the facts straight I would like you to know that I never even saw the picture in question. It was deleted before I even knew what it was about and I didn't bother to ask anyone for any of the details about it. As I mentioned before I have literally viewed every single episode of Kim Possible with a five to nine year old in attendance. Other things will come up that may not be so simple to define but KIm Possible is a child's cartoon about an underage character and this is an adult fetish board.

I believe very much that this discussion is a good thing and I don't want to stifle it. Please continue if you want.