Madchen in Moor....video.....(female)

[Duncan Edwards]

I don't see what is so implausible about it. Possibly she went to retrieve something which could have been duck eggs, cat tails, who knows? In that day you didn't have anything extra to wear so when you went to get wet you took everything off. I've slogged through water covered boggy areas that were a challenge to remain above water level. When I recall one particular area near Chester, Illinois I know that if I had been anything less than a reasonably fit, tall, big footed, man holding onto the sides of a canoe I would have in real trouble. I don't find it difficult to imagine at all that this petite woman drowned in a bog while crossing it or trying to get something from it. You can't tell how deep a puddle is from the top.

[rickyj]

Yes Duncan with all due respect it certainly was possible it was an accident, but I still think it's very unlikely. Even if she had removed her clothes at the spot for some reason, they most likely would have been discovered when the finders later dug around like crazy looking for everything they could. They found like every bone in her body I believe excpet for one. Now, it's hard to believe they would not have come accross, say a robe or a dress, or cloth, or at least some remnant nearby based on how much investigating they did. I obviously wasn't there when they did the digging, but it's tough to believe they could find something as tiny as her hair remnants, yet not a 5-foot long garment or something. Saying she was plodding through the marsh naked is certainly possible which seems to be what most people think is what happened. That could be, but I still do not think she got stuck and drowned. According to the article, they believed she had been doing tough physical labor for probably many years, and even though she was frail, it's hard to believe she wouldn't have "learned" where the dangerous parts were, or at least noticed the mud getting deeper and changing path.
So either she did her carrying work naked and one day after at least hundreds of days of probably walking that same path, just got stuck and died (improbable), or someone killed her near/at the area and hid/destroyed the clothes somewhere else(much more likely). Other than that, suicide is a small possibilty, or a fetish-gone-wrong experiment (least likely I would assume).

[BogDog]

Well, let's examine some of the facts:

When "BOG MAN" was discovered, he was found to be quite intact despite being buried for over 2000 years, unlike the condition of the young lady.. Even his whiskers were still visible.


Peat bogs can be very acidic like the one he was found in, and prevent organic-detroying bacterial from forming, and thus, prevent decomposition. Apparently this bog in our discussion wasn't so, due to the condition of the female body. Perhaps her dress was made from materials that could have decomposed and disintegrated by now. After all, all they found was bone as you stated.

If skin and other tissues have decomposed fully after 1500 years in that environment, then how could a cotton dress or whatever organic materials it was made from survive ?(no durable synthetics in those days.)


I put out the notion that she was wearing some sort of clothing when she entered the marsh AS SHOWN IN THE RECONSTRUCTION VIDEO.

Think about it. How many ancient skeletons and grave sites are discovered that feature bodies with intact clothing? Not many from what I've witnessed, and those few usually requires ultra-dry conditions like those found in desert conditions, or man-made preservation, like pre-treating bodies and the cloth they are wrapped in before turning them into mummies as the Egyptians did.

[Choco25]

Ok, some more information about the girl.

First of all, the machine used to dig in the bog actually hit the skeleton and therefore it was damaged and it was impossible to reconstruct the exact position of the body in the ground. I think one of her fingers were found several meters away from the place the most bones were found. Secondly, the missing clothes are unusual, because back in that time many clothes were made of grass and so on which would have dissolved in the acidic-like ground... the bogs in Northern Europe have a low PH-value. The same happened, for example, to the Tollund man http://www.alwanalkuwait.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/t058832a-1.jpg, who was found in Denmark. His leather pants and cap were preserved while his shirt or whatever disappeared. As you can see on the picture, he was a victim of a death sentence and he was buried or sunk in the traditional posture of that time.

However, the Tollund man is much younger that Moora. According to history records in her time most people were burned instead buried in the bogs, historians know that pretty good. This is another hint for the accident-hypothesis. Would she have died due to sickness or because of a crime her body would have been burned and they would have found grave goods.

[rickyj]

Certainly possible the clothes could have dissolved...but they found hair. They even saw it was "slightly red". Now how could the hair not dissolve yet cloths completely dissapear? I don't think hair would have more strength as cotton or any other fabric in regards to low PH values. The hair (whatever of it they found) is probably the last thing you'd think would still be there after all that time. I don't think that bog was low enough ph to dissolve clothes if the hair was found. And I just have a hard time believing a woman would be walking around naked like that, even back in those primitive days. That's obviously a source of debate though.
Yes, I know the skeleton itself was disrupted by the digging machines, but they sure must have spent a lot of time combing the area if they could re-construct all those body parts. How did they figure out she was left-handed? Kinda wondered about that.
One thing is certain, that it was not a natural burial. We'd all agree on that. So that either leaves an accident, suicide, fetish experiment gone wrong, or murder/hiding of the body.
Accident theory to me doesn't hold water(more puns again, ugh). I just don't believe a frail girl would be trekking accross a sloggy marsh carrying who-knows-what. It would only make her job more difficult. Even if she had to go through the marsh, it's doubtful she would have kept on walking whilst noticing the mud getting deeper. I doubt the mud would go from a few inches deep to suddenly 5 feet deep over a couple steps. Any normal person would stop and go another direction. Throw in the bouyancy factor, and it makes it even harder to believe she died like that. And no clothes or any other evidence is absolutely suspicious. Above all, I don't believe she would burden her already weak self by walking through a dangerous marsh. It doesn't make sense.
Suicide is a possibility, jacked up by the "belief" she had a tough life. Somoneone had obviously beaten her when she was younger, because of the healed skull fractures they found, and she had sicknesses, a curved spine, inflamed legs, and she was probably an outcast. She might have done herself in given all of that. It would be a plausable method to commit suicide because back then there were no guns or pills or tall bridges or anything.
Fetish possibilty couldnt be ruled out...but still, no clothes found...and it's an outlier chance that she would happen to accidently just go too far in and die. She was weak though, so it couldnt be ruled out.
However I still think the most likely scenario is some goon saw her, took advantage of her, raped her, pushed the body down, and then took off with the clothes and destroyed them. If she was indeed naked, that only bolsters the theory, because some man might have seen her naked and got excited or something.
So here is my retarded style breakdown:
accident-15% chance
suicide-5% chance
fetish accident- 2% chance
murder-78% chance
is that 100%? ....ok enough of this...

[BogDog]

Even if she had to go through the marsh, it's doubtful she would have kept on walking whilst noticing the mud getting deeper. I doubt the mud would go from a few inches deep to suddenly 5 feet deep over a couple steps.

I guess you never stepped in an underwater hole before, be it empty or filled with soft mud. There's nothing to be doubtful over.

I've encountered the former, and it can be quite a surprise. You can't avoid it because by the time you detect it, you're IN it.

Certainly possible the clothes could have dissolved...but they found hair. They even saw it was "slightly red". Now how could the hair not dissolve yet cloths completely dissapear? I don't think hair would have more strength as cotton or any other fabric in regards to low PH values. The hair (whatever of it they found) is probably the last thing you'd think would still be there after all that time. I don't think that bog was low enough ph to dissolve clothes if the hair was found.

"You don't think...?" "You doubt...?" No offense, but WAYYYY too much speculation going on here.

Assumption is meaningless if it isn't followed by verification. We can theorize all day and get nowhere.
Rather than assume facts that may or may not be true, just do what I do and consult the experts for VERIFIED facts:


QUOTE from MD-relate sites:

"Hair is a very durable series of protein chains.

Hair will eventually decompose, but far, far slower than most tissue. Soft tissue goes first, then ligaments. Hair is often found when there are only bones left.

It will fall out of the cadaver as the living hair follicles die and decay, but the hair itself will be fully intact long after all of the flesh is dissolved.

It can slowly be denatured and destroyed by exposure to acidic soil components or sunlight, but hair will outlast everything but the calcified bone."


Does that answer your question?

[rickyj]

I stand corrected then...didn't know hair could last that long. Yes I have been known to be wrong on occasion, but it is rare. And yes, I do not go through bogs so it is possible it could get deep real quick, I suppose, but logic would tell you there would almost always be a linear deepening as you go further. Her body must have been found near the perimeter obviously. If the documentary had been in English I think we would know a lot more about what happened, but all we have to go on is a wikipedia article and a woman in a spacesuit attached to a cable being lowered into a (non-water covered) overly-realistic think mud pit(which was not the case at the actual moor). Furthermore the documentary shows some lady in 1800's garb walking around for fun and picking flowers, then getting stuck and dying. I seriously doubt that's how it went down (more puns, can't help it..)
However I still contend it was most likely not an accident. That really was my only point. Too much evidence weighing against it. For it to be an accident, we would have to assume many things at once: that some frail girl perhaps carrying heavy stuff trekked through mud (doesn't make sense to do that), it happened to be hot that day so she went out naked (even that is a stretch even if it was hot); she just so happened to not notice the mud getting way deeper(you got to figure she got some warning), was dumb enough to keep going, got stuck and was unable at all to get out, no one else was around or with her to help her... that's a lot of conditions to be met all at once.
However it wouldn't take much for some sick guy to jump out, rape her and murder her, then push the body down and dispose of the clothes.
Yes we could speculate forever...but that's the fun of it....and hey, there's always a chance whoever did it maybe told someone, and for all we know, the info could have been secretly passed down over the generations and someone alive today in Europe or something MAY know that one of his ancient ancestors was the guilty party.