Why Americans Love Their Guns

[Aiko]

The chances of that are about even with the country of Austria flattening the Alps so tourists have easier access....not at all likely.

We can't simply flatten them. We would have to move them to Switzerland, but they don't want them. They say they got plenty already.

..., just like a ban on guns, it is all or none.

Unless I missed something while following this thread, no-one suggested banning guns in the US completely. I know I did not. And I honestly don't see why those two extremes are the only possible choices. Also, what you are saying implies that under US law there are currently no banned guns at all, and I'm not so sure of that.

First off, you do realize my AR is semi-automatic right? It's not a machine gun. I'm just pointing this out because you said in an earlier post that you were against people owning fully automatic weapons. Full auto is legal here, but it is very tightly regulated by the ATF.

Sorry, my mistake then. I'm not quite sure what made me think that an AR is full auto.

Second, if you could guarantee me with 100% surety that whatever regulation you have in mind would prevent someone from getting killed, yes, I'd happily deal with the inconvience. The problem is you can't. Me giving up my rights is not going to stop the hood rats up in Philadelphia from buying stolen or illegally imported guns out of some guys trunk. Criminals, by definition, do not obey the law.

You are absolutely right in that I cannot guarantee that. Nobody can. We could discuss endlessly why it would or would not be plausible. And BTW I did not have any specific regulation in mind. I was counting on you to have those in mind already. The purpose of my hypothetical question was rather to find out whether a rational discussion about more stringent laws was possible at all or whether emotions would take over completely. I consider the mere fact that you did actually answer the question with "yes" instead of only arguing against its premise a very good sign.

[Nessie]

I would have to describe my feelings about gun control to be divided.

A gun on a shelf is fine. A gun in my hand is fine. The two boys with the dad who were lending me their guns were all right too. I don't think I'd enjoy hunting live animals but if I had an unlimited supply of cans in a deserted area, it'd be hard to get me out of there for awhile.

I'd be happy to go target-shooting with Mynock.

I do believe in self-defense. I think most people who aren't totally stupid can responsibly manage a gun for that purpose. Anyway, just drive a car in heavy traffic for awhile. Who's really worse -- drivers or gun owners?

It sure would be nice to cut off the nut cases, though. Even with procedures in place to keep known risky folks from buying guns...like, I guess my old neighbor Meth Man probably can't legally own a gun any more...but how do ya keep somebody with a clean history from buying a gun and then going batty later, maybe even years later?

I didn't feel too great about Meth-Man telling me about his handgun and I really hope he was having one over on me.

I can't think of a good way to manage the nut case factor. I don't think there will be a good way in the near future, and the choice comes down to whether we accept that risk in exchange for the privilege of keeping the freedom to make the choice of whether we want to own a gun ourselves.

I come down, with some reservations, on the side of accepting the risk and keeping my freedom.

Nessie

[Mynock]

Sorry, my mistake then. I'm not quite sure what made me think that an AR is full auto.

No problem, I had a feeling there was a miscommunication going on there. Most of the "Assault Riflish" looking firearms you see us carrying around are semi-automatic. They closely resemble and share some parts with the full auto military versions, and can fire pretty rapidly, but they still only fire with bullet with one pull of the trigger.

You are absolutely right in that I cannot guarantee that. Nobody can. We could discuss endlessly why it would or would not be plausible. And BTW I did not have any specific regulation in mind. I was counting on you to have those in mind already. The purpose of my hypothetical question was rather to find out whether a rational discussion about more stringent laws was possible at all or whether emotions would take over completely. I consider the mere fact that you did actually answer the question with "yes" instead of only arguing against its premise a very good sign.

If it doesn't intrude on my rights and could save a life, I'm open to suggestion. People are resistant to further regulation because they think that, as it has in other countries, stricter regs will lead to even more stricter regs and then to some clown from the government showing up at your door to confiscate. It would take one hell of an act of congress to get to that point, but it's a slippery slope to start down.
Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist but I think what we have works pretty well. Like I said, if you do the math, even conservativly it comes down to about 1 death for every 10,000 that own a gun.....that's pretty freaking low.

[Aiko]

People are resistant to further regulation because they think that, as it has in other countries, stricter regs will lead to even more stricter regs and then to some clown from the government showing up at your door to confiscate.

I think any attempt to pull that off in your country would be political suicide. As long as people consider guns necessary to protect their very lives, there can be no significant change. First, crime would have to be brought down to such a level that everyone felt safe enough without a gun, only then could stricter regulations possibly be established. Not the other way around.

Like I said, if you do the math, even conservativly it comes down to about 1 death for every 10,000 that own a gun.....that's pretty freaking low.

It does not seem all that low to me, but I suppose that is a matter of perspective.

[Nessie]

As long as people consider guns necessary to protect their very lives, there can be no significant change. First, crime would have to be brought down to such a level that everyone felt safe enough without a gun, only then could stricter regulations possibly be established. Not the other way around.

That is exactly the problem!

I'm about as non-violent as they come. I can shoot cans just fine but I'd be very stressed-out even thinking about shooting a live animal. Yes, I do eat meat and I don't believe it's immoral. If my life depended on it, I would go ahead and learn to hunt (and gut it, and clean it, and cook it). But I wouldn't enjoy it.

What's really ironic is that the farther I go out into the wilderness, totally and completely alone, to hunt down possible mudpits, the SAFER I actually feel. I'll spend five hours out there in No-Man's Land without seeing a soul and I'm in peaceful Heaven, but plant me downtown in a big city filled with humans and while I can kind of get used to it after awhile, I am always a bit nervous. I've thought about gun ownership...depending on what kind of humans I see hanging out!

To give up the idea, we need to achieve a culture where we feel safe. And we can't seem to do it.

I have an odd aside story about guns that sort of fits the discussion here...culture is a huge part of how people deal with the idea of guns. Somebody I know who's over 70 years old says that when he was a teenager in a rural town, the boys would bring their rifles to SCHOOL and prop them up in the hallways so that they could go hunting at the end of the day.

Today, the very idea of such a thing would cause mass freakouts. But nobody thought it was at all dangerous. You didn't kill people with guns. Nobody even considered it.

Nessie

[newtothis2]

interesting you bring up culture Nessie. I grew up in a smallish town in PA, went to catholic school. In 6th grade it was a "rite of passage" so to speak for the entire class boys and girls to be bussed out to a nearby sportsmans club and we were all given the opportunity to fire a 22 rifle, strictly target shooting and followed by a tour of the grounds and a demonstration of skeet shooting by the club members. Not speaking for others but it did take some of the fear/apprehension out of handling/firing a gun for me. Like you, I've never hunted, but I am definintely leaning towards learning how now at age 50.

[Duncan Edwards]

I have an odd aside story about guns that sort of fits the discussion here...culture is a huge part of how people deal with the idea of guns. Somebody I know who's over 70 years old says that when he was a teenager in a rural town, the boys would bring their rifles to SCHOOL and prop them up in the hallways so that they could go hunting at the end of the day.

Today, the very idea of such a thing would cause mass freakouts. But nobody thought it was at all dangerous. You didn't kill people with guns. Nobody even considered it.

Nessie

It wasn't that long ago that guns at school was no big deal. I have a photo somewhere of all the memebers of the hunting club that was taken for the school paper. We are all in the parking lot in front of the school, about three dozen of us, sporting rifles, shotguns, and pistols. I'm holding a chainsaw just to be different. My girlfriend who was on the rifle team took the picture. Nobody thought it was an issue at all in 1980 to have forty guys with guns at school. The caption on the picture mentioned that we were to invade Iran during the spring break. It would never occurr to us or the school administration that this was a dangerous thing because rules for society were different then. The decline of civility overall has more to do with violence than an increase in guns.

[Mynock]

I have an odd aside story about guns that sort of fits the discussion here...culture is a huge part of how people deal with the idea of guns. Somebody I know who's over 70 years old says that when he was a teenager in a rural town, the boys would bring their rifles to SCHOOL and prop them up in the hallways so that they could go hunting at the end of the day.
Today, the very idea of such a thing would cause mass freakouts. But nobody thought it was at all dangerous. You didn't kill people with guns. Nobody even considered it.
Nessie

70 years ago? Try 20. The older kids did the same thing when I was in grade school, only you had to leave them in the principal's office. When I was In high school several guys brought their rifles in for wood shop to fit up the custom gun stocks they made for final projects.

[tempman]

I have an odd aside story about guns that sort of fits the discussion here...culture is a huge part of how people deal with the idea of guns. Somebody I know who's over 70 years old says that when he was a teenager in a rural town, the boys would bring their rifles to SCHOOL and prop them up in the hallways so that they could go hunting at the end of the day.

Today, the very idea of such a thing would cause mass freakouts. But nobody thought it was at all dangerous. You didn't kill people with guns. Nobody even considered it.

Nessie

Of course the problem doesn't stem from the instrument itself. The gun is inanimate. It really is (as previously noted) purely a culture thing. I've totalled 6 months living and working in the US. During that time I noticed that USA (excluding Canada since I haven't visited), and as anecdotal as it is, kids are brought up there in very weird ways. It's like parents don't have the time to sit down and teach their kids right and wrong for fear of being classed as a demanding parent.

I really wish I had the time to go into this. I studied psychology at university and did some research in US regarding the parenting issue. A combination of parents, media and drugs have really buggered up kids. Same for the UK, we're getting like that.

But my house in northern Italy? I can walk round there at midnight, on my phone with my iPod headphones hanging out my pocket and a sign saying MUG ME and nothing. The kids there (and a lot of the more traditional European locals I've visited) are respectful.

[Duncan Edwards]

It's like parents don't have the time to sit down and teach their kids right and wrong for fear of being classed as a demanding parent.

You hit it exactly.