The evolving, or devolving, quicksand community!

[Mr Mudster]

First, I just want to say that I'm not starting this topic to be confrontational or demeaning in any way, so I hope it is not taken as such! I am simply curious about how why our community has changed as much as it has over the years.

You see, I've been in this community for many, many years. I started with the old USENET a-s-f-wam and a-b-e-f-wam groups, and the other various a-s-f and a-b-e groups with photos and topics that appealed to me. This was centuries ago, in computer years -- when dinosaurs roamed the ethers!

Back then we had a "bulletin board" that you actually had to dial into! Later we had Yahoo Groups and some early web sites like "The Quicksand Page" and "Kaol's Ole Sinkin' Hole". And as the Internet revolution took off, people like Fred and Dave and Duncan and Foster started building a true network of quicksand lovers.

But as I looked back today over my collection of photos that I have accumulated over the years, I notice a striking dissimilarity between those taken by Chuck Lang, Kaol, and "Demanding Urge", and the ones we see today. Back then, it was about the mud and quicksand. It was about how it felt, and imagining what it would like to be in there myself. It was about giving me a reason to go out and find the ultimate quicksand paradise!

Nearly 15 years ago I wrote a novel about one man and his quicksand fetish. Unfortunately I never managed to get it published. And, as I read it now I know there's no way to easily update it as it is extremely anachronistic. But the core theme in the novel was about one man that lived with a secret desire to simply enjoy the feeling of sinking into quicksand!

And that's the idea I want to convey in this topic. Because, as I look at the various web sites and forums for our community, I see a significant paradigm shift in the themes of the videos and photos. It's no longer about the quicksand. It is, for all intents and purposes, porn! There isn't an emphasis on the substance like there used to be. The three most common recurring themes are: Damsel in Distress, Lesbian Make-Out Sessions and Solo Gratification!

I understand that porn sells! And I also understand that every producer here needs to make money in order to continue making videos. But I'm also wondering how many of us here still remember where we came from? When just the simple photo of a woman deep in mud was all we needed to bring us happiness. Do we remember the simple times?

[Fred588]

I can only answer from my own point of view, and only partly in this particular forum, but I will try.

First, and very speculatively as I do not know you at all, allow me to suggest that when an older person (and I am one) asks why the world has changed it must be allowed as a possibility that the world has not changed but that person's point of view has. But let's assume that is not the case.

Any producer incurs costs. Those can be substantial. Unless the producer is wealthy and willing to produce without recovery of expenses, he or she must ask for support in some form, generally a price for copies of material produced. If the producer does not ask, or does not get, most of the original investment back in some form then the production must stop. Most of the original producers you mentioned are no longer producing. Chuck passed away (I believe that was in 2001) - I am not able to account for the others.

When you say that what is produced today is "for all intents and purposes, porn," I would dispute that. I will respond to that in more detail but must do so elsewhere.

First, I just want to say that I'm not starting this topic to be confrontational or demeaning in any way, so I hope it is not taken as such! I am simply curious about how why our community has changed as much as it has over the years.

You see, I've been in this community for many, many years. I started with the old USENET a-s-f-wam and a-b-e-f-wam groups, and the other various a-s-f and a-b-e groups with photos and topics that appealed to me. This was centuries ago, in computer years -- when dinosaurs roamed the ethers!

Back then we had a "bulletin board" that you actually had to dial into! Later we had Yahoo Groups and some early web sites like "The Quicksand Page" and "Kaol's Ole Sinkin' Hole". And as the Internet revolution took off, people like Fred and Dave and Duncan and Foster started building a true network of quicksand lovers.

But as I looked back today over my collection of photos that I have accumulated over the years, I notice a striking dissimilarity between those taken by Chuck Lang, Kaol, and "Demanding Urge", and the ones we see today. Back then, it was about the mud and quicksand. It was about how it felt, and imagining what it would like to be in there myself. It was about giving me a reason to go out and find the ultimate quicksand paradise!

Nearly 15 years ago I wrote a novel about one man and his quicksand fetish. Unfortunately I never managed to get it published. And, as I read it now I know there's no way to easily update it as it is extremely anachronistic. But the core theme in the novel was about one man that lived with a secret desire to simply enjoy the feeling of sinking into quicksand!

And that's the idea I want to convey in this topic. Because, as I look at the various web sites and forums for our community, I see a significant paradigm shift in the themes of the videos and photos. It's no longer about the quicksand. It is, for all intents and purposes, porn! There isn't an emphasis on the substance like there used to be. The three most common recurring themes are: Damsel in Distress, Lesbian Make-Out Sessions and Solo Gratification!

I understand that porn sells! And I also understand that every producer here needs to make money in order to continue making videos. But I'm also wondering how many of us here still remember where we came from? When just the simple photo of a woman deep in mud was all we needed to bring us happiness. Do we remember the simple times?

[Duncan Edwards]

You can call it "porn" or whatever you want. I think you are just seeing what about 60% of the audience here wants to see and therefore that's where the money is. Not that anyone is greedy but when you are trying to figure out how to pay for what you are shooting the conversation in your head goes something like this -

Hmm...I can do a poor job of trying to convey how this feels to a relatively small portion of the market. I'll never be able to pay the bills with that. But this girl has big eyes and an awesome figure and likes kink. She gets how to be kinky and honestly I like that so let's shoot (fill in the blank ) that pays for doing all this for sure.

So from my experience it's a path of least resistance thing. At least in part. If I could have there were times I'd have Duncan Edwards Presents - Damsels in Quicksand Lesbian Porn Distress

For me your interest just wasn't mine. Broadly speaking I think that's the case with most of the producers and the largest portion of the community. Over time it took hold and grew. There's also this very aggravating thing about people who buy never ask for what they want to see. Over the years I have at times publicly begged for feedback that never comes. That' leaves the producers to shoot what they want and what they can pay their expenses with. In the end what you are saying could well be true but it's going to take someone else to break that cycle.

Another thing is that younger followers have been conditioned now to expect everything to be in video. We were once pleased with a single still photo that we had to download in 16k parts from usenet or a story. Now it better be HD video delivered directly to their mobile device. And it better be pretty good. Now instead of sharing the fantasy we are creating it for the next generation. Those that crave this sort of thing no longer have to wait for a minute long scene in a late night Tarzan flick. We are to a certain extent victims of our own success and I see no way to dial that back.

[PM2K]

As one of the generation Duncan speaks of, I personally think we are in a golden age of qs material. There is literally something for everyone here, when not that long ago, to find a low rez shot of a girl in quicksand in the movie From Hell it Came or Hound of the Baskervilles was a major treat. Moreso if there was a sequence uploaded.

Back when I joined the community in 1998... not the original group but the one right behind it... I was thrilled to find places where people wrote stories, did art and yes, posted photos of folks in quicksand. At the time - and oft repeated by many here - I thought I was the only one who was interested in such things. To find out I wasn't alone, and there are people who loved it enough to take the time to set up sites and post or produce quicksand material... there really are no words to describe how monumental a discovery that was.

The early days were people with a love of sinking in deep mud and quicksand heading out with others of similar interests to film or take photos of each other wading into the muck. It grew from there to become more and more sophisticated, driven by people doing it for the love of what they do, and eventually charging money to cover their expenses. It is mind boggling how far things have come, from a cameraman and model heading to the wetlands, riverbanks etc. to entire studios with ready made pits, camera gear and lighting, top notch performers/models and scripts with storylines to suit everyone's tastes, plus websites so one can order this all online.

My tastes definitely run to the melodramatic, and I do love a good storyline which introduces lady or ladies to bog/clay/quicksand. When you come to it, it is all role playing, just in front of the cameras. Some of that role playing will involve strong erotic elements, or dramatic, or both.

I do love the old photos and material produced in the "good old days" because those pioneers were using what they had to convey their love of mud and quicksand. But I for one wouldn't want to turn back that clock. Things are pretty damned incredible right now, thanks to a lot of hard work by true lovers of the genre, and I look forward to what the future brings.

[Mynock]

We are spoiled rotten by both the quantity/quality of available material. Not sure about the porn thing though because it's always been about the eroticism of being stuck/sinking for me......so for me it's pretty much always been about porn.

[dlodoski]

I'm not sure that you are speaking of the evolution of the community so much (and the inherent amount of content) - but rather how much of a charge you got from on-topic images then, compared to now.

Ignoring physical changes (aging), this is one of the casualties of the quantity of visual material there is to enjoy. I am biased of course, but I don't think that we went down the wrong path, so to speak. But one thing that I have noticed is that there is a certain kind of porn addiction tied to all of this.

When I use the term porn addiction, I am not inferring that quicksand fetish video in general is pornographic (that's a different discussion), but it serves the same purpose. What I am referring to is the desensitization that occurs when more and more of the material becomes available. Just as this desire for more 'to the point' content in the porn industry led to Gonzo porn, in quicksand fetish video, it has led to more over the top content (and also massive quantities of content). Regarding the 'adult' aspect of the content available, Duncan is right. You have to pay the bills. Like I said in the Vice documentary, when asked if you can make a living shooting quicksand videos, you can't. Which is why I diversify into mud eroticism. There is, of course, a natural blending of these two genres. I guess my point here is that if you want professionally produced quicksand videos, you need to have someone involved that also produces other types of content.

But regarding the desensitization problem, there is no complete fix for it. However, as individuals, we have choices that can make the effects of this conundrum easier to cope with.

First, I will offer a couple of my own methods of coping with the outward symptoms. One, is to slow things down and try to be more thoughtful about content in general. For me, it's much better to produce quality than quantity. Does this feed into the 'over the top' philosophy? Yes. But it also keeps the total consumption thing under some control. And secondly, I don't support or condone addictive (social) behavior. For example, I have lost more than one customer by shunning the objectification of the ladies who help us make this content. If you post about them like they are objects, I will treat you like shit. Business acumen be damned. (BTW - don't go looking for examples of this. The one or two classic cases don't post here any more).

From the consumers perspective, I can only offer the advice of backing off on the viewing once in while. It really does work. In other words, give it a rest. Pictures and video that have lost their magic will regain it, if left alone for a while.

Chuck and the other pioneers worked with what they had. That's why their pictures are basic, and somewhat innocent if you will. They took the edginess as far as they wanted to, or as far they could. In any case, those guys should never be forgotten. And, honestly, after a content free period, their stuff can still have the magic.

The real question, and one that can never be answered, is what Chuck would think of all this? Where would he have have gone with it? (Interesting food for thought.)

Regarding the original post, I do take exception with the idea that there is a lack of focus "about the quicksand". Even ignoring recent experimental efforts, I have gone to some rather extraordinary efforts to shoot in deep and interesting locations when the opportunities presented themselves.

These are just my seat of the pants musings. I doubt I will comment much more about it, but I will enjoy seeing how this discussion plays out.

[TK421]

I think you pretty much nailed it.

We are no longer in the day and age where we were waiting patiently for a possible scene to come up and we have our VCRS ready or where pickings was between the slim and none. There was only a handful of players, mostly either word of mouth or you got lucky (like myself) and quite literally stumbled upon a group some where. In the days of dial up and analog, there was a limitation on what you could find and producers could offer.

Now although mainstream content is on a decline, the content overall through the community has not and as Dave said it, any large amount of a good thing, and desensitization occurs. Producers can only try to push new ideas, new envelopes and new boundries in order to keep up with the ever growing demands of a "gotta have it now" culture. I am not saying that could be bad per say, but it does alter direction, approach and execution on a production stand point. I say this, having done production and dealing with the first wave of complaints. "It's gotta be HD." Ok, done. "We have to do live streaming." Ummm, ok...done. "We need to try to do remote broadcast offsite." Uhhh....wuh?! It sounds silly, but keep in mind this was from a company whose clients were happy enough knowing that they had operational projectors. Point here is, there comes a point to pause and be thankful for what you have or remember what you did not have before.

I second also on the overconsumption aspect. There comes a time where you just need to take a step back and just back off the material. This for me is a "guilty pleasure". This is my proverbial "occasional cheesecake" and like it, I am not going to be downing a slice once a night. It loses its enjoyment if you are on here looking for a new fix time and time again. Enjoy reading the off topic stuff every now and then or just not buy up scenes like a junkie. I can tell you honestly, I STILL watch one of Daves first vids "The Hunt" with Brinke Stevens and I am an 19 year old kid again. It takes me back to the very first time I ordered it on VHS and Dial up was still around. It still keeps it magic as Dave so eloquently stated and it's all due in part that I don't barrage my head to death with it. It's like listening to Led Zeppelin...I love them most when it is not on the radio and not their most commercial stuff.

Operational costs aside, cameras themselves can be in excess of 4000-5000 without all the goodies and while I cannot say what producers here are using, the costs only go up from there. Production software, editing software, audio mixing (assuming audio is recorded as well), lighting.... It catches up quickly and we are not even into labor, manmade materials, pits, maintenance and model costs. The erotica stuff helps keep the lights on. It's one thing to say that the Quicksand and only quicksand genre alone is sufficient to sell movies, but it sadly isn't. You want more evidence of that, look at Playboy's announcement to stop doing full frontal nudity in their magazines because they see that it is no longer a taboo in the ever growing porn industry.

I'm not sure that you are speaking of the evolution of the community so much (and the inherent amount of content) - but rather how much of a charge you got from on-topic images then, compared to now.

Ignoring physical changes (aging), this is one of the casualties of the quantity of visual material there is to enjoy. I am biased of course, but I don't think that we went down the wrong path, so to speak. But one thing that I have noticed is that there is a certain kind of porn addiction tied to all of this.

When I use the term porn addiction, I am not inferring that quicksand fetish video in general is pornographic (that's a different discussion), but it serves the same purpose. What I am referring to is the desensitization that occurs when more and more of the material becomes available. Just as this desire for more 'to the point' content in the porn industry led to Gonzo porn, in quicksand fetish video, it has led to more over the top content (and also massive quantities of content). Regarding the 'adult' aspect of the content available, Duncan is right. You have to pay the bills. Like I said in the Vice documentary, when asked if you can make a living shooting quicksand videos, you can't. Which is why I diversify into mud eroticism. There is, of course, a natural blending of these two genres. I guess my point here is that if you want professionally produced quicksand videos, you need to have someone involved that also produces other types of content.

But regarding the desensitization problem, there is no complete fix for it. However, as individuals, we have choices that can make the effects of this conundrum easier to cope with.

First, I will offer a couple of my own methods of coping with the outward symptoms. One, is to slow things down and try to be more thoughtful about content in general. For me, it's much better to produce quality than quantity. Does this feed into the 'over the top' philosophy? Yes. But it also keeps the total consumption thing under some control. And secondly, I don't support or condone addictive (social) behavior. For example, I have lost more than one customer by shunning the objectification of the ladies who help us make this content. If you post about them like they are objects, I will treat you like shit. Business acumen be damned. (BTW - don't go looking for examples of this. The one or two classic cases don't post here any more).

From the consumers perspective, I can only offer the advice of backing off the viewing once in while. It really does work. In other words, give it a rest. Pictures and video that have lost their magic will find it again if left alone for a while.

Chuck and the other pioneers worked with what they had. That's why their pictures are basic, and somewhat innocent if you will. They took the edginess as far as they wanted to, or as far they could. In any case, those guys should never be forgotten. And, honestly, after a content free week or two, their stuff can still have the magic.

The real question, one that can never be answered, is what Chuck would think of all this? Where would he have have gone with it? (Interesting food for thought.)

Regarding the original post, I do take exception with the idea that there is a lack of focus "about the quicksand". Even ignoring recent experimental efforts, I have gone to some rather extraordinary efforts to shoot in deep and interesting locations when the opportunities presented themselves.

These are just my seat of the pants musings. I doubt I will comment much more about it, but I will enjoy seeing how this discussion plays out.

[Mr Mudster]

Excellent points from everyone! I was hoping that this could lead to a very in-depth discussion, and it has!

First, and very speculatively as I do not know you at all, allow me to suggest that when an older person (and I am one) asks why the world has changed it must be allowed as a possibility that the world has not changed but that person's point of view has. But let's assume that is not the case.

In a way, it is that my personal views have changed. But that is perfectly normal as we "mature" - or become "old farts"! I think that as we become older we also become less tolerant and patient. That is why we reflect on the "good ole' days" so much. Remembering how things once were helps us to take our minds off of those things that we have no control over.

There's also this very aggravating thing about people who buy never ask for what they want to see.

I can tell you that I am one who has done that. But I have my reasons for it! Maybe it does go against the grain of my original post, but I don't want producers to just produce things "one way". I still do have a mild desire of seeing something that is outside my paradigm. And if I ask for something like that, I cannot be surprised when I see it! Yeah, it doesn't make sense, but I'm the same way with presents from people. If my wife asks me what I want for Christmas, and she gets it for me, that's no different that my going out and buying it for myself. But if I open the box and find something I didn't expect at all, that increases my happiness ten-fold!

As one of the generation Duncan speaks of, I personally think we are in a golden age of qs material.

I cannot say that I disagree. Yes, it's nice not having to wait for all the parts to make it through the 2,400 modem, dialed into AOL, attempting to access a "forbidden" newsgroup through esoteric software! And it's nice not having to connect two VCR's together with an RCA patch cable just to add another scene to a personal "clip tape"! But, in a way, that also slightly diminishes the "magic" of the experience.

The early days were people with a love of sinking in deep mud and quicksand heading out with others of similar interests to film or take photos of each other wading into the muck.

And having some of the worst quality camera work ever seen! Yes, I still remember some of Kaol's video of Kristine in the mud. It looked like it was filmed during a magnitude 8 earthquake! But that was part of what made it special. It wasn't a professional video shot using professional equipment. No, it was just one man shooting what he loved, knowing that he'd never make any money doing it.

What I am referring to is the desensitization that occurs when more and more of the material becomes available.

Dave, I think you hit the nail on the head! That is likely one of the reasons that my perceptions are what they are. Referring back to my earlier comment about becoming more "intolerant" as we age, I think that intolerance combined with more (perceived) bad material tends to skew ones opinions toward believing that there is more bad material than what there actually is!

But regarding the desensitization problem, there is no complete fix for it. However, as individuals, we have choices that can make the effects of this conundrum easier to cope with.

I made one of those choices a number of years ago. I completely broke away from the quicksand community. I posted under a different username back then, which is why it's likely that no one recognizes my name now. But I made a choice in 2004 to stop being a part of the community. I stopped visiting the forums, stopped dropping by the websites, and deleted all my photos and videos from my PC! Yes, I still had backups, but they weren't readily available. I had gotten so frustrated with my perceptions that I decided to focus on actual "IRL" mud and quicksand play than the virtual reality I had built around myself. But shit happened, and I started not being able to actively physically participate to the same level I once could. So in 2010 I started working my way back into the community. I did it as a "new" personality, just because I didn't want to come in with old perceptions still there. I wanted it to be new, both to me and to the community.

And, for the record, my old persona was "Muddy Eddie".

The real question, and one that can never be answered, is what Chuck would think of all this? Where would he have have gone with it?

It's really hard to say. I never knew Chuck personally. I never knew most of the people here personally, actually! I'd like to think that Chuck would have continued to have that unique, artistic eye toward creating his photographs, but with modern equipment the sky would be the limit!

... look at Playboy's announcement to stop doing full frontal nudity in their magazines because they see that it is no longer a taboo in the ever growing porn industry.

Which I found to be rather telling of the porn industry as a whole! Playboy was never the hardcore rag that Hustler, T&A, High Society and others were. They did it tastefully and artistically. It was likely because of that reason that Playboy became the "brand name" for the early porn industry. When they made the announcement to eliminate nudity (relatively speaking) I was not surprised. As many pointed out in their comments here, taking a step back from the "overload" is sometimes the best way to grow.

So, again, thanks for all the fantastic replies!

[quickbeard]

I'm not sure if this is not simply the age old lament... You young whippersnappers don't know how good you have it. Why when I was young all we had to sink.into was rocks... And we were glad!  Notice also the once fertile member submission section.  With the exception of a precious few, no one writes or draws anymore.  Is it because it is easier to watch a video than use our imagination?  A while back, I crawled out of my hole to answer a post looking for stories with a particular detail.  I suggested looking up stories from Derek Jayson.  The person in question commented on how poorly the stories were written.  When I said that these stories were written during the early years when quicksand was the star, basically the response was So what?   We now have access to a banquet of videos and are looking for delicacies instead of simple meat and potatoes.   But, never fear, I am sure that someone is writing code to create a virtual avatar that will fulfill our every whim.   And back to my hole I go...

[Fred588]

Quickbeard makes some good point, IMHO. As an old curmudgeon I know I have a tendency to think "Gee the younger generations don't write because they CAN'T write." On the other hand, I don't write quicksand stories anymore either so most likely I'm just an old curmudgeon.

I do think that the lack of much positive feedback is a factor that discourages some from doing stories. I don't think that is the case for myself though - I'm just busy with other projects.

I'm not sure if this is not simply the age old lament... You young whippersnappers don't know how good you have it. Why when I was young all we had to sink.into was rocks... And we were glad!  Notice also the once fertile member submission section.  With the exception of a precious few, no one writes or draws anymore.  Is it because it is easier to watch a video than use our imagination?  A while back, I crawled out of my hole to answer a post looking for stories with a particular detail.  I suggested looking up stories from Derek Jayson.  The person in question commented on how poorly the stories were written.  When I said that these stories were written during the early years when quicksand was the star, basically the response was So what?   We now have access to a banquet of videos and are looking for delicacies instead of simple meat and potatoes.   But, never fear, I am sure that someone is writing code to create a virtual avatar that will fulfill our every whim.   And back to my hole I go...