A Quicksand Death in the News, 1902

[some_writer_guy]

I was under the impression that (scientifically speaking), a human body cannot fully submerge in mud or quicksand because of natural buoyancy. While it is possible for someone (and it has be documented as happening) to become stuck and die of other factors such as incoming tides, exposure, hypothermia, etc., a person does NOT "sink to their death" like in the movies. Otherwise most of us wouldn't be here to tell the tale.

However, I was researching shipwrecks (another strange interest of mine), and was looking into the series of hurricanes, tornadoes and nor'easters that struck new England in 1901-1903 (In which 2 large schooners collided in a gale, and the Guggenheims lost a barge transporting their jewels). Buried in the storm reports, I found a news story about someone who died in New Jersey after a strong tornado tore through Trenton in 1902. Apparently, they were on the fairground after the storm, when they became mired in mud, sank and drowned. According to the report, several local men and the Fire Company had to dig their body out. I tried to research this further, as it's probably the only reference to someone actually drowning in quicksand in existence, but I couldn't find anything on the incident itself. I did however find another reference to the death in another report recalling the tornado, which claims they were the only (albeit indirect ) death attributed to the storm, and claims they died from sinking into a "mud pile" describes as "virtual quicksand".

Note: Link taken down for content.

Veering away from the sad, macabre (and not allowed) topic of this death, I thought it would raise an interesting question on how something like this is even possible. We're all sort of qs experts to a degree, and over the years I've never heard of someone actually dying. Any of you have any theories on how a quicksand pit like this could form which could send someone (or one of us ) to their death? As a cautionary piece to the hazards associated with our interest, how safe is it, and can any measures be taken to assure the safety of those who want to enjoy mud/quicksand recreationally? Or is this just a freak, one-in-a-billion kind of thing?

Note: Edited for content

[Jumpoff_Joe]

Unfortunately, this post seems to be in direct violation of several group rules. Please review them, accordingly:

2. No content (or linking/pointing to content) that discusses or depicts under-aged persons or characters is allowed. Violations of this rule will result in deletions and other unspecified damages.

8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated.

[some_writer_guy]

Sorry if I was out of compliance with forum rules. I wasn't meaning it as a discussion of actually killing someone or anything else. I saw the tidbit, and more intended to ask about it as a cautionary measure of can quicksand actually be this dangerous to someone who may not know the hazards, or was this just a freak occurrence?

Mods: I'll edit it a bit to try to be more compliant, but if it's still out of sorts, you may lock or delete it.

[bogbud]

For me this is more a historic/scientific topic, but others have to decide.

Regarding the event:
I doubt that is a "classic" area of quicksand or bog or something similar we know or talk about. That could have been an temporary muddy area created by some mudflow. When these are large they can be a couple meters high and bury whole towns. Maybe this was smaller, created by the storm and did not look like a disaster-area.

About sinking in general:
Lets say, i would recommend to be very cautious when exploring bogs with floating mats. The thickness of the crust of plants/moss varies and also the consistency of the water below it. Every other area is quite safe and will keep you afloat (the other hazards you did describe are still there of course)

[some_writer_guy]

For me this is more a historic/scientific topic, but others have to decide.

That's how I meant it, mainly as something to talk about for research purposes. This historical event marks the only recorded time that the normal laws of science were suspended, and those dramatic qs death scenes in movies actually happened in the real world. I just goofed and posted the link and too much description without thinking, which I do apologize for.

[i]Regarding the event:
I doubt that is a "classic" area of quicksand or bog or something similar we know or talk about. That could have been an temporary muddy area created by some mudflow. When these are large they can be a couple meters high and bury whole towns. Maybe this was smaller, created by the storm and did not look like a disaster-area

I was thinking something similar. It wasn't a permanent or semi-permanent area for sure. I think it had to have looked like a disaster area though. Most of the Trenton/Hamilton area looked like a bomb hit, apparently. That's probably why people were assing around the fairground in the first place-it must have seemed like a novelty, and they wanted to play around in the wreckage like people do today after storms hit.

I don't think it was a mud flow though, as it was in Mercer County, New Jersey, there's really no place for a moderate or large mud flow to come from, or any real hills or valleys for it to travel through. It's mostly flat land. Is it possible that a tornado could churn up already muddy earth into something like this?

Now that I'm not working, and have time for this kind of thing, I dug into the records of the New Jersey Bureau of Geology and Topology, and found out that Mercer county is (God this stuff is intensely scientific) Pre-Triassic bedrock composed of schiss, quartzites and gneisses, covered with a layer of Pleistocene sediments composed of clay and silt. They even stated that it causes reduced groundwater production.

So is it clay+lots of water+F2 tornado=deadly quicksand bogs? I'd think there would have to be other factors.

Note: Predicting hazards and threats to people, places and things is part of what I do for a living. I'm used to not leaving any stone unturned if there's a potential for a natural or manmade disaster that can cost my company clients and/or money. I guess that's why I'm interested in pursuing this.

[Sinkman61]

Unfortunately, this post seems to be in direct violation of several group rules. Please review them, accordingly:

2. No content (or linking/pointing to content) that discusses or depicts under-aged persons or characters is allowed. Violations of this rule will result in deletions and other unspecified damages.

8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated.

Are you for real? Fetish site or not, if someone has a question about any dangers associated with sinking in quicksand, than its valid. Imagine someone asking something related to safety, but you shut them down because it doesn’t conform to the rules. And later that night they go out sinking and die. Simply because they couldn’t get a simple question answered without violating some rule. Are you seriously that inflexible? SAFETY SHOULD ALWAYS COME FIRST, REGARDLESS OF ANY RULES TO THE CONTRARY.

[dlodoski]

Unfortunately, this post seems to be in direct violation of several group rules. Please review them, accordingly:

2. No content (or linking/pointing to content) that discusses or depicts under-aged persons or characters is allowed. Violations of this rule will result in deletions and other unspecified damages.

8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated.

Are you for real? Fetish site or not, if someone has a question about any dangers associated with sinking in quicksand, than its valid. Imagine someone asking something related to safety, but you shut them down because it doesn’t conform to the rules. And later that night they go out sinking and die. Simply because they couldn’t get a simple question answered without violating some rule. Are you seriously that inflexible? SAFETY SHOULD ALWAYS COME FIRST, REGARDLESS OF ANY RULES TO THE CONTRARY.

Actually, Joe has a valid point.

This topic was mulled over and left to stand - and not because it has some redeeming 'safety' value. It doesn't. Safety information can be effectively discussed here without any "Here! This! I told you so!!"

It was let stand because it's doubtful that the news information is even accurate. The whole thing is basically very old hearsay.

[Sinkman61]

All I can say is that, as a retired Navy Veteran, we wouldn’t have ever made any assumptions based on anything. Thus, any question that even had the slightest connotations about safety, we would’ve given them the benefit of the doubt unless we had concrete proof to the contrary. That’s simply because safety always came FIRST. We just weren’t willing to risk anyone’s life, even if the chance of something happening was ridiculously remote. That’s only because, despite everything we think we know, accidents still happen. I think your rule #8 that crosses the line on safety issues. While obviously we don’t want to discuss anyone actually dying, it’s actually happened. There should enough flexibility to discuss such issues in order to mitigate them, especially for those that are just starting their mudding adventures.

The issue comes down to sinking in tidal mud flats. Tidal mud flats have some of the smoothest, silkiest, stickiest mud known to mankind. For the inexperienced, they’re also, by far, the hardest type to free yourself from. There’s been several deaths over the years here in NE Florida alone from people getting themselves trapped in tidal mud. In most cases, the people involved probably weren’t there to go sinking and just didn’t realize how dangerous the mud could be for someone that wasn’t trained on how to get themselves free. They simply walked out onto the mud flats during low tide without realizing just how sticky and deep this mud really was. The latest here was only a couple of years ago when a woman drowned because she sank down to her neck, mostly because she had panicked and flailed about, which had driven her much deeper. She was down neck deep when the tide came in. Someone was trying to save her, but the truth is, if you’re neck deep in mud and the tide is coming in, nobody’s going to be able to pull you out no matter how strong they are. So it’s up to us to get ourselves out. People shouldn’t ever go sinking down deeper than that which they’re absolutely sure that they can get themselves back out. It took me years and years before I was willing to do a full submergence in tidal mud. Trust me, it feels simply amazing when your entire body is completely encapsulated and is being squeezed from all directions at once while you can barely even move. I simply don’t want others to assume that they too could do it without risking themselves. Being able to do that has literally taken me years and years of experience. I started playing around in mud back when I was 8. I remember doing my very first waist deep sink. It was along the edge of a muddy pond at the end of the street I lived on. There was a house that overlooked the pond. I was so worried that I was going to get caught (and nearly did). Despite that, I wanted to see what it would feel like if my butt had dropped below the surface. It took me over a half hour to get out. But that’s because this was an all new experience for me, as I hadn’t ever done something so crazy before. But...I ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT. From that day forward, that was my ultimate goal...sinking waist deep. Of course, now I sink down until the mud is closing in over my face. And that’s sinking vertically. I don’t want the inexperienced to be doing what I do without thinking about their own safety. That’s because at the end of the day, when everyone’s out of the mud, hopefully EVERYBODY is alive and well. I don’t want to have someone die because they couldn’t get themselves out and the tide drowned them, or they couldn’t get back up to the surface because the mud was so sticky that it held them down. Or that someone was eaten by an alligator, bite by a poisonous snake, or had a heart attack because they over exerted themselves beyond what their body could withstand.

Anyhow, the lady that lived in that house eventually caught me and told my mom I was next to her house playing in the mud along the pond. My mom had a damn fit. Grounded me to my room after she eventually stopped yelling. She went overboard. But the damage was already done. Back then it was the early 1970’s, there was no internet, and I hadn’t even hit puberty. But I had found a lifetime of love...because I had become a mudder when such a thing wasn’t even known to exist. Now I’m 58. I’m still in outstanding shape which I actually attribute to all the exercise I had been getting, and I’m still going out sinking, only now, if the mud isn’t deep enough for me to get at least down to my ears, it’s alm not worth the effort. But lucky for me, I’ve never lived in a place that has as much incredible tidal mud as there is here in NE Florida. We’re the Mecca of tidal mud flats.

[dlodoski]

All I can say is that, as a retired Navy Veteran, we wouldn’t have ever made any assumptions based on anything. Thus, any question that even had the slightest connotations about safety, we would’ve given them the benefit of the doubt unless we had concrete proof to the contrary. That’s simply because safety always came FIRST. We just weren’t willing to risk anyone’s life, even if the chance of something happening was ridiculously remote. That’s only because, despite everything we think we know, accidents still happen. I think your rule #8 that crosses the line on safety issues. While obviously we don’t want to discuss anyone actually dying, it’s actually happened. There should enough flexibility to discuss such issues in order to mitigate them, especially for those that are just starting their mudding adventures..

Ok, so people have died in mud, including at least one member of this community. It's dangerous.

Acknowledging this fact does not violate board rules. Perhaps the word 'actual' should be replaced with the word 'specific'.

Here's a hypothetical for you. Would a Navy commander use a family member as a safety example if half the people in the room were likely to masturbate about it afterwards?

Rule #8 isn't just about us, it's also about friends and associates stumbling across a fetish community exhorting the demise of their loved one. Think about it.

[Sinkman61]

Seriously? You actually used masturbation as an example?

GET REAL. How can you possibly blow off a possible safety issue by comparing it with someone masturbating. Masturbating isn’t going to kill you. But, if you’re some newbie out in deep quicksand while wearing heavy boots (because you read about it in here) and find yourself completely stuck only to drown when the incoming tide gets you, you’re delusional if you think that you’re immune from being sued by the family of that newbie. NEVER have I heard of any site saying that a safety issue violated some rules. I’ll tell you now..whom ever made those rules had better have some seriously DEEP POCKETS. Because if you have rules preventing others from having discussions on safety aspects in regards to sinking in mud/quicksand, I GUARANTEE YOU THAT YOUR LUCK WILL RUN OUT. And if you stand in front of a Judge and try using your masturbation example, after he gets done laughing at you, he’ll probably hold you in contempt of court for wasting the court’s time on such stupidity.

Please, don’t pretend that sinking in mud and quicksand is completely safe and has no risk. Nothing could be further from the truth. And after reading a lot of post in here, as for everyone here being a quicksand expert...NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. There’s plenty of people with little to no experience. And after accumulating 50 years of sinking experience in all types of mud throughout multiple localities, I can easily say that some of you that think you’re experienced aren’t. I started sinking and playing with mud before I even knew it was a thing. That’s because it wasn’t a thing at all. The Internet wasn’t even on the horizon. We didn’t have cable TV, microwaves, VCR’s, or much of anything else. You had 3 networks. And when you went sinking, you were probably alone. Nobody discussed what it was like to go sinking in mud.

You simply can’t have rules banning discussions on safety. It’s unconscionable. Downright STUPID. ITS A LAWSUIT WAITING TO HAPPEN. Like it or not, it’s a very important aspect of going in deep mud. It may be basic stuff to you, but for some newbie it’s NOT. ITS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. Lord forbid someone drowns or gets heatstroke and dies they got completely trapped all because someone IN HERE told them sinking in heavy boots was the best way to go sinking after you board administrators refused to allow safety aspects to be discussed, I’LL SUE YOU MYSELF. AND I’LL PRESS CRIMINAL CHARGES AND HAVE YOU ALL ARRESTED. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEADS. As a retired/disabled Veteran and Chief Petty Officer of the United States Navy. I WILL NEVER DISREGARD OR TAKE SAFETY FOR GRANTED. PERIOD. The fact that such a conversation even needs to be approached simply amazes me, ESPECIALLY IN THIS DAY AND AGE with lawyers looking for a reason to sue. Don’t give them one.