A Quicksand Death in the News, 1902

[Nessie]

You simply can’t have rules banning discussions on safety.

But...but...we don't have a rule banning safety talk. Honest.

Is it possible that the rule itself needs a clarification?

It currently reads:

"8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated."

Far as I know, this rule covers two situations. One is when some yahoo either confuses fantasy with reality or posts a trollish message implying that it would all be much more exciting if people really died. That hasn't happened a lot (but it has happened). And it's a moderator judgment thing when it does happen. The rule, though, is handy.

The second is the fact that posting of gory scary news stories featuring real situations, real fatalities, real names and real people on a fetish forum filled with dark fantasy themes and sexual material really does make said forum look ghastly and hideous and evil to the outside world.

I can't think of any way to make this NOT look ghastly.

Maybe we should think about...

"8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated. Please do not post actual news stories involving real quicksand fatalities."

Then, Rule #9 could be "We are also a community of real-life sinkers. The sharing of safety information between actual sinkers is encouraged."

#9 then becomes #10.

Something along those lines.

Nessie

[Fred588]

I my opinion both Dave and Nessie are quite right, and Sinkman61 is wrong (completely wrong) in interpreting things as banning discussion of safety.

When rules get too specific there is some risk of encouraging trolls to hide behind technicalities. Another possible edit to rule 8 could be to simply insert "cases of" before "actual."

You simply can’t have rules banning discussions on safety.

But...but...we don't have a rule banning safety talk. Honest.

Is it possible that the rule itself needs a clarification?

It currently reads:

"8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated."

Far as I know, this rule covers two situations. One is when some yahoo either confuses fantasy with reality or posts a trollish message implying that it would all be much more exciting if people really died. That hasn't happened a lot (but it has happened). And it's a moderator judgment thing when it does happen. The rule, though, is handy.

The second is the fact that posting of gory scary news stories featuring real situations, real fatalities, real names and real people on a fetish forum filled with dark fantasy themes and sexual material really does make said forum look ghastly and hideous and evil to the outside world.

I can't think of any way to make this NOT look ghastly.

Maybe we should think about...

"8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated. Please do not post actual news stories involving real quicksand fatalities."

Then, Rule #9 could be "We are also a community of real-life sinkers. The sharing of safety information between actual sinkers is encouraged."

#9 then becomes #10.

Something along those lines.

Nessie

[Sinkman61]

You simply can’t have rules banning discussions on safety.

But...but...we don't have a rule banning safety talk. Honest.

Is it possible that the rule itself needs a clarification?

It currently reads:

"8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated."

Far as I know, this rule covers two situations. One is when some yahoo either confuses fantasy with reality or posts a trollish message implying that it would all be much more exciting if people really died. That hasn't happened a lot (but it has happened). And it's a moderator judgment thing when it does happen. The rule, though, is handy.

The second is the fact that posting of gory scary news stories featuring real situations, real fatalities, real names and real people on a fetish forum filled with dark fantasy themes and sexual material really does make said forum look ghastly and hideous and evil to the outside world.

I can't think of any way to make this NOT look ghastly.

Maybe we should think about...

"8. This is a fetish site dealing with serious fantasy themes. However, discussion of, or references to, actual mortality is considered inappropriate and will not be tolerated. Please do not post actual news stories involving real quicksand fatalities."

Then, Rule #9 could be "We are also a community of real-life sinkers. The sharing of safety information between actual sinkers is encouraged."

#9 then becomes #10.

Something along those lines.

Nessie

Rule # 8 crosses the line and will get you in serious trouble. You need to delete it. The faster you dump that rule, the better. It doesn’t need clarification. It needs to go. If there’s ANOTHER death in the area, YOU SHOULD TALK ABOUT IT. You should bring home the point the those with little experience shouldn’t go under. And they really need to stay out of sticky tidal mud altogether. That’s really for the experienced only. And that wearing heavy boots such as mucking boots is fine for knee deep stuff, but don’t wear them to places that are waist deep or more, because you’re not going to be able to dig your way back out. They create too much suction for a beginner sinker and can get you into some serious trouble, especially here in north Florida. Because if the tide doesn’t get you, the blasting furnace up in the sky will. And you’ll have a heat stroke. Lastly, you should tell everyone to just stay out of the mud altogether in the midsts of the summer here, because heat stroke is a very real danger. Personally, sinking season here in North Florida should be April 1st - July 31st, and September 15th - until December 15th. Adjusting of course, to your own tolerance levels.

You NEVER, EVER tolerate any rule that could even remotely have something to do with safety. That certainly includes talking about a death that happens. It’s happened just a couple of years ago in Jacksonville. It was just all over the news about a guy getting trapped last winter out in Utah, and that was only 1 leg. I can’t possibly overstress this enough. Because if you ban such talk, eventually some newbie will come along and get himself killed simply because he thought that if we can do it, so can he. He’ll be down to his neck in deep tidal mud with heavy boots on. And when it’s time for him to get out, his feet won’t budge. Infact, in his panic, he’ll soon find himself even deeper...until he’s to tired to even move. The mud will be just below his nose and he’s in VERY SERIOUS TROUBLE. A few days later he’ll be reported as missing. Either he’ll never be heard from again or someone will investigate why there’s so many buzzards out in the mud flats, only to come across his half eaten face barely sticking out of the mud. He won’t “float up” as some in here think, because tidal mud is extremely sticky. Therefore, you can easily sink well past your buoyancy point. And you’ll NEVER just pop back up to the surface. That’s because despite all your buoyancy, the suction created by very sticky mud is a stronger force that can override your buoyancy, holding you down. You may have 40-50 pounds of upward buoyancy, but, you’ve also got about 1 ton of downward suction. It isn’t even close. If you had a hot air ballon tied to your ass, the suction would STILL win.

[Sinkman61]

Well Nessie, why don’t you go talk to a lawyer or judge about that and see what THEY SAY. Hopefully they can get this through your dense skull. YOU DON’T BAN ANYTHING HAVING EVEN THE SLIGHTEST TO DO WITH SAFETY, PERIOD. You will be slaughtered in a court room. They’ll charge you criminally with outright negligence. You’ll be civilly sued for millions.

Something tells me that you’re seriously lacking experience in this matter. Maybe when you get to your 40’s and 50’s you will have lived long enough and seen enough to FINALLY realize this. And if you’re only in your 20’s, personally, I don’t even think you’re qualified to have an opinion. So if you think you’ve got more experience than I’ve got, go ahead, do what you want. It’s you ass on the line, not mine. After all, what do I know. I only started playing in mud during the summer of 1969. Were you even alive back then? I did my first deep sink back in 1974. We’re y even alive back then? I did my first submergence sink in 1988. Surely you were around then????

Enough on this topic. If you can’t figure this out on your own, I feel sorry for you. But at 58, with 50 years of sinking and a full career in the Navy behind me, I’m going to stick to my experience in actually living long enough to learn by seeing things happen. This is NOT a completely safe activity. But it certainly can be by following a few common sense rules meant to keep you from ever becoming trapped. There’s a video on YouTube made by some Arabic guy who makes quicksand sinking videos on how to get out. During one of his videos he himself got his left leg completely trapped. He had to be rescued. Unfortunately for him, it appears as if one of the rescuers stole his shoes and some other things at the end of the video. This guy got trapped because he broke some very simple rules. Don’t ever punch through layers of mud or sand when you feel them with your feet. If the consistency of the material you’re sinking in changes, stop...move to another spot. You can’t dig through a layer that’s beneath another layer. And that lower layer could be pure quicksand or clay. Both can trap you. This guy rocked back and forth when he stopped sinking in order to sink deeper. He sank himself right into a layer that had so much suction that he became completely trapped. Fortunately, he had a very loud whistle so he was able to get himself some attention from others, even if they did rob him. Because they also dug him out.

[mud_dreamer]

When I first read Forum Rule #8 I recall being a little shaken up. Personally, I would welcome a healthy discussion of any actual quicksand accident/death in the news.

Maybe an example on both sides of the fence would be appropriate so members are not confused.

[some_writer_guy]

My god...

When I posted this originally, I never meant it as a troll, nor did I mean to violate any rules. I brought it up only as a documented historical incident, only for the purpose of discussing how a tornado could make mud. Hell, I even deleted the links and everything but a vague description of events to be in good standing with forum rules.

I never meant for this topic to be resurrected as a point of contention among members. Tempers run high these days...

I do agree that we should discuss safety, and take every potential danger into account, especially if anyone is wanting to venture out into deeper mud/qs. Whether or not that involves talking about something bad that happened to someone as a cautionary tale or a learning experience, so be it, but that very NOTION is up to the mods and hosts of this site, not us members. I will go by whatever rules the mods send down the line, and won't try to bend or break them. That said, if this post is going to stir up a hornets nest, whatever mods out there can feel free to lock it or whatever. This was not posted to start an argument, but only for science.

[Sinkman61]

I’m no Troll. I’m the real deal. Safety is near and dear to my heart because I’ve lost friends during my service in the Navy. I don’t take chances with mine or another’s life. I want us all to see tomorrow. And the next day, and so forth... I’ve also been a member of this board for several years. It’s a great place with interesting people.

I’VE EVEN PUT MY HOME PHONE NUMBER IN HERE THAT ANYONE CAN CALL. In fact, I had a terrific, very delightful 1.5 hour discussion with another member in here that saw my number and called it last night. He too is a firm believer in the safety aspects of our fetish. It’s just too important. We had a interesting, productive, and enjoyable discussion mostly about our quicksand fetish. And I know I’ll be keeping in touch with him.

[Nessie]

Well Nessie, why don’t you go talk to a lawyer or judge about that and see what THEY SAY.

No, I'm going to let you rant and rave here until somebody stops you or you burn out.

For the record, I AM a sinker. It is easy to talk about safety without re-posting stories about fatalities. You are capable of doing this on your own authority and experience.

Or didn't you think of that?

Nessie

[Sinkman61]

Nessie...you’re missing the point. You’re a quicksand Model. You go sinking mostly in man made quicksand pits. In my prior line of work, we would’ve called that “laboratory conditions.” I doubt it gets covered up twice a day with five feet of water. And if and when you get stuck, there’s plenty of people around to get you back out. When the quicksand was formulated, did anyone think to add in several hundred pounds of salt? That’s important, because if you’re looking to simulate tidal mud, that’s a required ingredient. Then enclosed it so water can’t get out, and while you models are doing your thing, we’re going to have the fire station come and dump an additional 5 feet of salt water on top of your quicksand twice a day, for 6 hours each time. And if you happen to be stuck when the fire station starts adding all that extra water, too bad, because they’re going to put the water on your quicksand regardless. Then you will have a simulation of tidal quicksand. It’s an entirely different animal. The added SALT acts as a binding agent to the clay, turning it into a really sticky mess. Basically, it Superchargers quicksand. Thus, getting out is no longer easy, even for the very best sinkers around. Many times you’re going to have to DIG yourself out. And when you finally extract yourself, you’ll be covered with about 100 pounds of mud that’s still stuck to you. You’ll be exhausted and just want to lay onto of the quicksand. Then there’s the matter of getting out completely. To do that you’re going to have to roll or drag yourself across the top, because when you try to stand up on this stuff, you immediately sink down to your thighs. And any pressure you use to step forward drives the other leg down to your butt. That’s what we’ve got here. And that’s why every few years someone ends up dying. They’re not necessarily people like us that go sinking. They’re innocent people who were fishing or just happened to walk out. They might’ve been initially walking on a what appears to be a sandbar, but in reality, those aren’t even safe. They’ll hold your weight, but not for very long. And then when they give, down you go, back into the supercharged quicksand. And if the tide happens to be coming in, oh well...you better get yourself out before you get covered over with the incoming ocean. I’ve sank in all kinds of quicksand and mud throughout the years. None of them ever had tides to contend with. Nor have I ever had to contend with pulling up so much muck as you deal with here. So yes, there’s dangers with quicksand... depending on the type of quicksand you’re in and where it happens to be located. When there’s a QS death, that’s when it SHOULD BE TALKED ABOUT. If for anything, to remind others to be safe, and so we don’t give the impression to some newbie that our fetish is 100% safe. BECAUSE ITS NOT. But it certainly can be, by simply looking at the hazards and mitigating them so they’re no longer hazards. Example...I know when the tide is going to start coming in and how long it’ll take to come and cover the deep quicksand/tidal mud banks. So when I go sinking, I make sure to get to the tidal marsh about 1 -2 hours BEFORE low tide. The tops of the banks will already be exposed. So now I’ve got around 4 hours of time to go play. That’s ample time that if I get stuck (I have), that I can dig myself back out (which I’ve had to do on numerous occasions, but that’s part of sinking here...getting back out). The issue is with newbies. And I guarantee you that they come in here and read our posts. And they get ideas from what we post. Those ideas are great for those who know what they’re doing. For some rookie...not so much. I would NEVER suggest to a rookie to go sinking in deep tidal mud with heavy boots or waders on. They’d better be able to pull themselves free from those boots or waders, because they’re going to be leaving them behind, stuck permanently in the tidal mud banks. There’s all types of mud and quicksand. And they’re certainly not all the same. Some can be dangerous, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE WITH LITTLE TO NO EXPERIENCE. That’s my point.

The problem is, if there’s a death and some kid is found stuck in quicksand, especially if he’s away from the shore or solid area, they’re going to do an investigation. And part of that investigation will include looking at social media for clues. That includes this site. So if the kid got his ideas from in here and there’s absolutely nothing to tell him DON’T DO THIS WITHOUT PROPER EXPERIENCE AND/OR SUPERVISION, there’s going to be[u] some very serious problems for those running the site. I like this site. I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT TO SEE ANYONE IN HERE GET IN TROUBLE over something stupid that someone did simply because they read it in here.

[Sinkman61]

Nessie, I don’t want anything to happen to you. I’m NOT trying to give you or anyone else a hard time. I just want to make sure that the basis are completely covered so nobody can come back and say they saw it here and tried to mimic it, and as a result, someone died. That’s a very real possibility. So instead of jumping on me, let’s just make sure that the site is covered for such things. And it doesn’t hurt to remind people every so often that there really are dangers and it’s up to us to mitigate them so they’re no longer an issue. And tell the newer sinkers to stay within their abilities. They don’t need to be trying stuff just because they saw it somewhere on some site. It literally took me 2 hours once to get out of an especially sticky area here. But I was fine because I had planned ahead. Thus, I still had another hour before the tide came back in. Had I not bothered to check the tide tables and plan ahead, and just went sinking on a whim because I was in the area when I noticed that the tide was out, I could’ve gotten in serious trouble. But, because of the tidal issue, I NEVER GO IN THE TIDAL MUD BANKS without planning it out first. Obviously, that planning starts with the tide tables. That’s been my point from the very beginning of this conversation. But instead, I got jumped on by people telling me that there’s no dangers and I don’t know what I’m talking about. Well, I know exactly what I’m talking about. Our fetish, like them all, starts with a fantasy. What’s not a fantasy is the real world quicksand we enter to live out our fetish. If we were sinking in fantasy (make believe quicksand), there’d be no dangers at all.