Apache Helicopter Vs. Taliban

[nachtjaeger]

Almost surgical precision. Never shot up the tents, even when the guy with the RPG showed up. Well done, Apache crews!

And I am reminded of the Heinlein quote, something like "I can kill when I have to, but I don't like it- even when it's a case of I'm alive and he's dead and that's the way I wanted it."

^^@3:05 "I've got women and children moving around down in the tents so watch your fire"
Those tiny little specks you see blinking on and off in the background are small arms fire, so it's not like they were putting up their arms in surrender.

[Lomax]

So please, Lomax, don't say we shouldn't be there.

You shouldn't be there. Neither should we. I'm still not sure how we got dragged into this. Where was Harold Wilson when we needed him (he was the British PM in the sixties who told America firmly that we were not going to get involved in Vietnam)?

I assure you that I was as horrified as you when news of the Twin Towers broke. That you should seek to bring the perpetrators to justice is laudable, and I shared your desire. Had my own countrymen been involved, I would have handed them over without a qualm.

However, 9/11 did not give you the right to invade (I use the term quite correctly) a country because some of the perpetrators may have come from there (though Bin Laden was actually a Saudi), or might be hiding there (he wasn't, anyway). Nor did it give you the right to indulge in torture, or to set up that offense against international law known as Guantanamo Bay.

I'm disapointed with your throwing the Afghans to the Lions comment. Not all Afghans are Taliban or aQ, so don't insult every Afghan. Besides, all three are Muslim for the majority, whereas Christians were thrown the the lions, if I get your attempt at an anology.

This is a separate issue. Let us assume that what we saw in the video was totally justified on military, politcal - even humanitarian - grounds. That still leaves the question of why the clip was posted on You-tube, or here. It seems to me that it was done because some people thought it was fun to watch. This is where I draw the parallel with the Colosseum. People went to the Colosseum to see men die. Two millennia later we are appalled by this - except we can now sit at home and watch men die on our PCs. I'm not so naive as to deny that acts of violence may be necessary in certain circumstances; but that they should then be broadcast to amuse and entertain - that is what I have a problem with.

Every last person that is wearing the uniform, (From the EU to North America and Africa) would like to go home - once the job is done.

And when will that be? They've been there what - ten years now? As long as both World Wars combined. And is there an end in sight? Afghanistan is a tough nut to crack. We got our arses well and truly spanked in 1840-odd, and the Russians fared little better in the nineteen eighties. Even Alexander the Great only passed through.

And what is the job, anyway? To support a puppet ruler who has as much legitimacy as the rulers of East Germany in the Soviet era (and whose chances of remaining in power for more tha 48 hours after his masters have left are about as great)? To convince a nation that the people who are killing them are their friends? To force a three thousand year old society to remodel itself on the American model just because you say so?

I'm sorry that you served there. I'm sorry if you lost any friends. But I can't see any outcome for the situation in Afghanistan except more blood, more suffering and more death.

Especially if people keep posting video clips that will simply convince more Afghans to take up arms against the invader.

[Green Heart]

Figured this topic would turn into a pissing contest.

[Duncan Edwards]

However, 9/11 did not give you the right to invade (I use the term quite correctly) a country because some of the perpetrators may have come from there (though Bin Laden was actually a Saudi), or might be hiding there (he wasn't, anyway).

Yes, actually it did. Self defense is a recognized right given to all humanity. You might recall that we actually asked the Taliban to hand Osama over first before we went there looking for him. They refused. The United States, along with a lot of help from other Afghans, went there to get him and those who supported him. That part of the job is complete and took ten years. The remaining goal is to leave some sort of secure structure behind so the next Bin Laden will not have a place to hide and work from.

And when will that be? They've been there what - ten years now? As long as both World Wars combined. And is there an end in sight? Afghanistan is a tough nut to crack. We got our arses well and truly spanked in 1840-odd, and the Russians fared little better in the nineteen eighties. Even Alexander the Great only passed through.

President Obama has set our departure date in 2014 and after he is re-elected this November I believe he will accelerate that as much as possible. We entered Germany the last time in 1945 and we are still there. We also remain in Japan, Korea, Italy, and a host of other places we'd just as soon not have to be spending blood and treasure to maintain. Unlike Britain in the 1840's and the Soviets later, the international coalition is not looking to expand an empire but merely to make sure there is no home for the successive waves of bad guys that are sure to follow. I don't think anyone pretends that an American style democracy exists or ever will but at least someone is sort of in charge and they did get there by and Afghan version of a popular vote. That's better than the Soviets left behind and I think it's a real stretch to equate the current Afghan government to East Germany.

Especially if people keep posting video clips that will simply convince more Afghans to take up arms against the invader.

Recruiting has never been a real problem for them now, has it? You've recited a long history of the inability to control Afghanistan and it strikes me as naive to assume that a little gun camera footage is going to be news to them. Why is it posted at all? Well that's a good question and probably what you mean to ask to begin with. I will confess to some adolescent jollies as I watch stone age bad asses getting zapped in the dark by unseen justice. I'm sure for certain members of the current generation it's just really cool first person shooter game video. There are probably as many answers as there are viewers but don't expect it to end. This kind of "low grade" but constant warfare is going to go on for decades as our world grows ever smaller. Beginning as early as this fall it may be accompanied by live reportage from Iran, Israel, or the streets of New York, London, and Tel Aviv. In human terms it is sad indeed but I'd advise either becoming accustomed to it or just turn your tv, pc, radio, and iPhone, off.

[Ted]

...Why was this clip uploaded to you-tube; and why was it linked to on this site? ....

I realize that this question is rhetorical, but it does touch on "Why was it allowed?"

It was allowed based on the forum description Anything goes, as long as we treat each other with respect

I personally feel that religion and politics should be off limits, but my job is to follow along with the way the board is set up. And, in case anyone was wondering, that is why there has been no moderating in this thread.

Figured this topic would turn into a pissing contest.

That's ok, as long as it's not on each other, or into the wind.

[Duncan Edwards]

...Why was this clip uploaded to you-tube; and why was it linked to on this site? ....

I realize that this question is rhetorical, but it does touch on "Why was it allowed?"

It was allowed based on the forum description Anything goes, as long as we treat each other with respect

I personally feel that religion and politics should be off limits, but my job is to follow along with the way the board is set up. And, in case anyone was wondering, that is why there has been no moderating in this thread.

Figured this topic would turn into a pissing contest.

That's ok, as long as it's not on each other, or into the wind.

One reason why the board was set up this way is because of bad experience at another site where the moderator(s) were kind of arbitrary in how they decided such things. The alternative is to leave it wide open and play nice with each other. I think Green Heart has it all wrong since all I see is debate without division. It's nice that we have all hung around each other so long we can carry on a civil discourse about things we don't agree on. That used to be commonplace in this country.

And Ted buddy, one benefit of this that I became aware of as a moderator was if you don't have many limits you don't make work for yourself. Enjoy.

[Lomax]

Figured this topic would turn into a pissing contest.

That's ok, as long as it's not on each other, or into the wind.

I didn't even know we had moderators. Whether this says more about your lightness of touch or my lack of attention is hard to say.

I'm not going to come back to this thread. I've aired my views and I don't apologise for them. Others disagree with me - and I don't have a problem with that either. It's not the first time, and I don't suppose it will be the last.

And I'm very happy to agree with Duncan that we manage to disagree in a civil manner on this site.

[dlodoski]

...I didn't even know we had moderators. Whether this says more about your lightness of touch or my lack of attention is hard to say...

There are two dedicated moderators, General Woundwort and Ted.

In the past two days, they have banned nine spammers and dis-approved their posts.

Whenever a topic is moved, that is done by a moderator. Most of what they do happens behind the scenes.

[Billie Bonce]

If America was invading my country I wouldn't bloody surrender either.

I second this

[Mynock]

^^Thirded, but if somebody was pointing a 30mm chaingun and multiple hellfire missles at me, and all I had was an AK47, I would seriously consider a temporary strategic withdrawl. Jack Sparrow said it best: "He who fights and runs away, lives to run away again."
Just for the record this wasn't meant to be a political statement or anything. Just found it interesting from a general military perspective.