Debunking help needed- JFK assassination

[nachtjaeger]

Okay, let me start by saying I am the guy who loves to debunk conspiracy theories- helps me sleep better at night. I also like to use "Holmes' razor" (created by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle) as a logical tool, which states "When you have eliminated the impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, is the answer."

So, I was up very late last night debunking a Facebook post on the JFK assassination- and did so successfully. But then I got to reading up on the rifle Oswald used, and then things got weird. I went back and reread the official autopsy report, and there is my problem.

My question to the "gun nuts" on the forum: Would a round from Oswald's rifle have caused the massive damage that was done to the President's skull?

Ballistics are thus: 6.5 x 52mm Mannlicher Carcano, 6.8 mm diameter bullet, full copper jacket. 10.5g (162 gr.) round nose. Muzzle velocity 661 m/s (2,170 ft/s) energy 2,293 J (1,691 ft-lbf)

Problem 1: Would the 6.5mm FMJ cartridge described above have transferred enough energy to cause the massive skull damage described in the autopsy report?

Problem 2: The autopsy report describes the bullet fragmenting on contact with the skull- but the other bullet that went through the President's shoulder/neck and Governor Connoly's chest, wrist and thigh (the so-called "magic bullet") survived intact, merely slightly deformed from bone contact.

Problem 3: The autopsy report describes a small entrance wound, large exit wound, severe tissue damage and skull fractures that appear consistent with hydrostatic shock. It also mentions bullet fragments along the track of the wound. To me, that wound is more consistent with something like a .30 cal soft-nose deer round, not a military FMJ cartridge. The 6.5 x 52mm described was very stable in flight and not designed to tumble, which may account for it's "poor performance" in WWII Also, military style FMJ cartridges are (need to check this) illegal for hunting in most states, as they are designed to would cleanly rather than kill instantly.

Please help me debunk this. Dismissing every other conspiracy theory, if I'm correct it means that Oswald didn't fire the head shot. Which means a second shooter with a better rifle and deadlier ammunition. 2nd shooter would probably have had to be in or on the School Book Depository (not the "grassy knoll"). Somebody please prove me wrong. . .

[PM2K]

I'm not an ammunition expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I did hear of two things more recent re examinings of the assassination have come up with.. which may help.

Apparently, one of the rounds Oswald fired went though a traffic signal, which was partly screened by trees from his vantage point from the book repository. More recent examination of film and photos taken of the scene show a bullet hole through the traffic lights... so perhaps that round was forced to tumble by the impact, and so did more damage when it struck the President.

Second... those who rely on the length of the Zapruder (sp?) film to time the shots forget to mention, or didn't know, he stopped filming to conserve film, only starting up again when Kennedy's motorcade came close to him again. That actually adds several seconds to the amount of time Oswald had to let loose his shots

Not sure if this will help or not.

[Mynock]

Problem 1: Absolutely. When a bullet hits soft tissue it creates a pressure wave not unlike the ripples a stone makes when you throw it into a pool of water. This shockwave is absorbed by the surrounding tissue and quickly dissipates leaving the affected area resembling something like jello but not quite as tasty.
What happens when you get shot in the head is that the pressure wave gets trapped inside your rigid skull. If you get a thru shot the wave will usually follow the round out the exit wound (insert theatrical spray of brains here). If the round does not exit, the pressure wave rebounds off the inside of the skull, increases in power, and then takes the path of least resistance back out of the entrance wound (insert even bigger and more theatrical spray of brains here). Kennedy's head wound was of the latter variety, the bullet went in but it didn't come out, thats why there was so much brain spray and why it went in the direction of the shooter.

Problem 2: The same round can behave very differently depending on what it hits. Hitting large heavy bones like a skull will cause a round to frag whereas hitting softer tissue like a torso or leg will result in a much more 'neat' wound. I can achieve the same results with 5.56 NATO (similar in size/performance/design). If I shoot a cinderblock both the round and the block get turned to shrapnel. If I shoot a watermelon I get a nice neat hole.

Problem 3: See above. FMJ's can and will frag if they hit the right thing the right way. Shooting a thick dense bone like a skull is one way to make that happen.

[nachtjaeger]

Thanks.

Problem 1: Absolutely. When a bullet hits soft tissue it creates a pressure wave not unlike the ripples a stone makes when you throw it into a pool of water. This shockwave is absorbed by the surrounding tissue and quickly dissipates leaving the affected area resembling something like jello but not quite as tasty.
What happens when you get shot in the head is that the pressure wave gets trapped inside your rigid skull. If you get a thru shot the wave will usually follow the round out the exit wound (insert theatrical spray of brains here). If the round does not exit, the pressure wave rebounds off the inside of the skull, increases in power, and then takes the path of least resistance back out of the entrance wound (insert even bigger and more theatrical spray of brains here). Kennedy's head wound was of the latter variety, the bullet went in but it didn't come out, thats why there was so much brain spray and why it went in the direction of the shooter.

Problem 2: The same round can behave very differently depending on what it hits. Hitting large heavy bones like a skull will cause a round to frag whereas hitting softer tissue like a torso or leg will result in a much more 'neat' wound. I can achieve the same results with 5.56 NATO (similar in size/performance/design). If I shoot a cinderblock both the round and the block get turned to shrapnel. If I shoot a watermelon I get a nice neat hole.

Problem 3: See above. FMJ's can and will frag if they hit the right thing the right way. Shooting a thick dense bone like a skull is one way to make that happen.

[Nessie]

Awhile back, somebody lent me "Case Closed".

I am no expert on forensics nor do I know how well this particular author did with facts. It sounded fine to me but I haven't done any other research.

However, if he was anywhere close on Oswald's character, for me that debunks any conspiracy theory that doesn't feature Oswald as complete pawn who never knew he was played. He not only wasn't a team player...I'm not sure what kind of team would even want him on board!

Nessie

[Duncan Edwards]

Awhile back, somebody lent me "Case Closed".

I am no expert on forensics nor do I know how well this particular author did with facts. It sounded fine to me but I haven't done any other research.

However, if he was anywhere close on Oswald's character, for me that debunks any conspiracy theory that doesn't feature Oswald as complete pawn who never knew he was played. He not only wasn't a team player...I'm not sure what kind of team would even want him on board!

Nessie

I think Nessie has it. I get very worked up about all this endless conspiracy nonsense about the Kennedy assassination, fake moon landings, Sept. 11, cell phone towers, you name it. There is never any real evidence for any of it but the loons who fall for it all will argue over a tiny piece of circumstantial evidence and completely overlook the bigger questions. Little things like WHY? Why would you go to all the trouble to construct this incredible situation when there's generally a much easier way to deal with things? How would you manage to employ dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people in a plan so monstrous and deceptive and manage to keep it completely silent forever? Any thinking person, especially one so gifted as to create such a thing, would realize this was impossible. And you ever notice that nobody ever has anything go wrong as they execute these plans? Incredible as they are you would expect one of them to screw up an terrifically complicated plan but that never happens. You can't get 100% perfect execution on a sports team that practices all the time. How do conspiracy organizers do it so perfectly?

You can argue about tiny details of ballistics forever. Bottom line is in the big picture the entire mess is ridiculous.

[Mynock]

Nobody wants to believe that the leader of the free world was taken out by a third rate loser with communist sympathies and delusions of grandeur because it sucks. Hence, there will always be nut jobs who believe it was the aliens from Area 51, or the Mafia hitman on the grassy knoll, or whatever.

[kham]

Not to mention, there are multiple simulations with fairly accurate ballistics, showing the average joe can get the shots off in the required time or less, and hit the target. Thats what the nutjobs cannot wrap their mind around, you dont need to be a marksman at that range.

[Mynock]

The range was somewhere around 100 yards. Anyone with 10 minutes of training and a decent rifle can hit a stationary target at that distance with iron sights. Slow moving limo is slightly more challenging but not undoable.

[nachtjaeger]

And according to his military training records, Oswald could definitely handle a rifle- when he bothered to exert himself.

The range was somewhere around 100 yards. Anyone with 10 minutes of training and a decent rifle can hit a stationary target at that distance with iron sights. Slow moving limo is slightly more challenging but not undoable.