Producers and payment options using cryptocurrencies

[Fred588]

While its not asconvenient or as fast as an electronic transfer, or a gift e-card, its hard to beat a money order for anonymity.

[Viridian]

No I don't think so. People took the time to respond to my question and wanted to reply to them out of respect. This is a forum for discussing things and that's what's being done. Since you don't agree, there's no need for you to be upset, just move along to another thread. I'm not here to focus solely on Bitcoin discussions. If you read my initial post, I was asking about using these coins to pay producers for their goods and services making it 100% relevant to quicksand. I may have chose the wrong sub-forum and for that I apologize. I believe the general consensus and answer about my inquiry is that bitcoin is not something anyone is interested in getting involved with at this time and that's perfectly fine. I got the feedback I was looking for and hopefully through doing so I raised at least a little awareness.

I was making a passing comment, but since you've assumed that I don't agree and alluded that I might be upset, this is a perfect demonstration of why you shouldn't do this.

Yes, this is a forum. In a forum, whether in real life or online, there are rules and etiquette. While you haven't broken any rules, there's something to be said about writing an individual, personalised response to every person who posts in your thread. You don't seem like a forum newbie, so I'm surprised this hasn't occurred to you.

In short:

• Summarising points and addressing concerns as a whole is a more streamlined way of discussing a point, rather than block-quoting and going over the same thing across multiple posts.
• Readers have to go through dozens of posts to find one that responds to them, while having to draw on multiple posts to articulate an appropriate reply.
• Responding to every post is a huge time sink. I'm not going to question or criticise how much time you choose to spend on doing so, but this is an exponentially unsustainable form of discussion.
• By writing dozens of individual responses, you dominate the thread. You're essentially putting yourself on a soapbox - and people who do that are preaching about something. People don't like that.
• Many forums have rules against mass posting. You're basically flooding your own thread.
• Responding to every person individually, rather than responding to the community as a whole, can come off as too personal and confrontational, especially disagreement. It also reflects that you take everything personally, and that rarely goes well in any discussion.

If this was an "Ask-Me-Anything", sure, I'd expect someone to do this. But seriously, this part of your personal response could've summed up the whole thread:

"I believe the general consensus and answer about my inquiry is that bitcoin is not something anyone is interested in getting involved with at this time and that's perfectly fine. I got the feedback I was looking for and hopefully through doing so I raised at least a little awareness."

Sure, it was a valid question to begin with and the right place to ask, but that was before it exploded into a 40-post disagreement about Bitcoin, which means it's not "100% relevant" to quicksand. We're not talking about quicksand at all. Don't even try to sell me off on that.

That's what pisses me off the most. I have to deal with missionaries and marketers on a regular basis and this is so damn typical. They sweet-talk you into opening up a conversation, and they've come fully prepared with the resources to persuade you. There's a difference between gathering feedback and promoting something. Here you've gone "Would producers accept bitcoin? No? Well, here are reasons why they should". That might not be your intent, but there's so much marketing in this thread it makes me sick.

"This is a forum for discussing things". Really? I'm sorry for being so dumb and ignorant that you have to tell me where I am. All I did was suggest a better place to discuss Bitcoin, and I get patronised and you assume that 1) I disagree with Bitcoin, 2) I'm upset and 3) I haven't read your initial post. Yeah, now I'm upset. The irony is that by personalising every reply, you assume things about each person. And people hate that.

So hopefully I've raised a little awareness too, and I will kindly repeat my suggestion that you shove your Bitcoin onto the Off-Topic forum.

[awdc]

No I don't think so. People took the time to respond to my question and wanted to reply to them out of respect. This is a forum for discussing things and that's what's being done. Since you don't agree, there's no need for you to be upset, just move along to another thread. I'm not here to focus solely on Bitcoin discussions. If you read my initial post, I was asking about using these coins to pay producers for their goods and services making it 100% relevant to quicksand. I may have chose the wrong sub-forum and for that I apologize. I believe the general consensus and answer about my inquiry is that bitcoin is not something anyone is interested in getting involved with at this time and that's perfectly fine. I got the feedback I was looking for and hopefully through doing so I raised at least a little awareness.

I was making a passing comment, but since you've assumed that I don't agree and alluded that I might be upset, this is a perfect demonstration of why you shouldn't do this.

Yes, this is a forum. In a forum, whether in real life or online, there are rules and etiquette. While you haven't broken any rules, there's something to be said about writing an individual, personalised response to every person who posts in your thread. You don't seem like a forum newbie, so I'm surprised this hasn't occurred to you.

In short:

• Summarising points and addressing concerns as a whole is a more streamlined way of discussing a point, rather than block-quoting and going over the same thing across multiple posts.
• Readers have to go through dozens of posts to find one that responds to them, while having to draw on multiple posts to articulate an appropriate reply.
• Responding to every post is a huge time sink. I'm not going to question or criticise how much time you choose to spend on doing so, but this is an exponentially unsustainable form of discussion.
• By writing dozens of individual responses, you dominate the thread. You're essentially putting yourself on a soapbox - and people who do that are preaching about something. People don't like that.
• Many forums have rules against mass posting. You're basically flooding your own thread.
• Responding to every person individually, rather than responding to the community as a whole, can come off as too personal and confrontational, especially disagreement. It also reflects that you take everything personally, and that rarely goes well in any discussion.

If this was an "Ask-Me-Anything", sure, I'd expect someone to do this. But seriously, this part of your personal response could've summed up the whole thread:

"I believe the general consensus and answer about my inquiry is that bitcoin is not something anyone is interested in getting involved with at this time and that's perfectly fine. I got the feedback I was looking for and hopefully through doing so I raised at least a little awareness."

Sure, it was a valid question to begin with and the right place to ask, but that was before it exploded into a 40-post disagreement about Bitcoin, which means it's not "100% relevant" to quicksand. We're not talking about quicksand at all. Don't even try to sell me off on that.

That's what pisses me off the most. I have to deal with missionaries and marketers on a regular basis and this is so damn typical. They sweet-talk you into opening up a conversation, and they've come fully prepared with the resources to persuade you. There's a difference between gathering feedback and promoting something. Here you've gone "Would producers accept bitcoin? No? Well, here are reasons why they should". That might not be your intent, but there's so much marketing in this thread it makes me sick.

"This is a forum for discussing things". Really? I'm sorry for being so dumb and ignorant that you have to tell me where I am. All I did was suggest a better place to discuss Bitcoin, and I get patronised and you assume that 1) I disagree with Bitcoin, 2) I'm upset and 3) I haven't read your initial post. Yeah, now I'm upset. The irony is that by personalising every reply, you assume things about each person. And people hate that.

So hopefully I've raised a little awareness too, and I will kindly repeat my suggestion that you shove your Bitcoin onto the Off-Topic forum.

Your "passing comment" was less than welcoming with a hint of sarcastic and negative tones which indicates that my thread upset you. This wasn't a simple assumption; it was an accurate assessment which is furthermore supported by your follow-up response. That's nice of you to express your opinion on etiquette but given your current responses above, I'm not likely to take any of your advice. I'm more than seasoned in participating in forums and interacting with people in a tactful and respectful way especially those like you with a confrontational manner trying to put people on the defense. You clearly don't agree with this thread or how I chose to discuss a topic with people but yet you still feel the need to come in here and assert your opinions on how people should write in forums based on what you feel is correct. Your points may have some validity but it was all lost in your hostile delivery method.

The discussions I responded to were not in a confrontational manner and were held without any kind of name-calling or disrespect to conflicting opinions. Your posts are the exception when it comes to confrontation. You're the only one in this thread offering up confrontation and a dramatic display of trying to educate me to your self-defined standards. There's really no purpose for you to even be responding to me since you disagree. You could have clearly sent me a personal message but instead you wanted stake a claim on the same soap box to make your point. You're doing what you're preaching people should not do...

It's certainly your choice and prerogative to waste energy on being pissed off. What you failed to assess was yourself and how you interact with people in forums. You preach etiquette yet you lack a simple level of tact when displaying your opposition to the discussion I started. You think the only thing you did was suggest a better place to put this in the forums but you failed to see that your language did more than suggest one simple idea. You were very easy to read and identify that you were upset, you opposed this thread and likely the topic, and since you did not piece the information together it was evident that you either did not read my initial post or you were not able to comprehend the ideas formulated. There was no irony in this. Like you, I chose to read what you wrote without having the additional thoughts and expression that may typically come along with those in personal discussions. When you leave out information, people do make educated guesses at a person's intent and meaning when clarity is lacking. You speak of "people" hating assumptions but what you can't clearly see is that you're speaking for yourself and making the assumption for other people. That's irony and actually made me laugh.

If the producers and moderators of this forum felt I was out of line they can PM me and help resolve any issues privately which is also what you should have done. This entire confrontation could have been avoided if you initial post was as simple as "Please move this to off-topic". Rather, you embellished personal drama and feeling into it by starting your post with "Good lord". I don't feel as though I've done anything disrespectful to you or to this forum in starting or responding to my own topic. I came with a viable question with a purpose and if there is anything I'm guilty of doing incorrect it may have been putting this thread in the wrong location. There were many misconceptions about the topic that I felt were necessary to clarify which meant replying to many of the posts. You clearly don't agree, so let's move on and go about our ways respectfully before this upsets you more. If you feel the need to be upset more and want to share it with me then send it to my PM box to spare people any further drama.

[Viridian]

This wasn't a simple assumption; it was an accurate assessment which is furthermore supported by your follow-up response.

It begins and ends here. I expressed surprise (Is this not what "Good lord" often precedes?), especially as this is the only time I've seen anyone on this forum take the time to write detailed responses to every comment, and offered a suggestion.

You responded with an assumption. In fact, you're assuming your "assessment" of my intent was accurate, which it is not. Your entire rebuttal of my comments hinges on the presumption that you know exactly what I intended. I've chosen to be hostile and untactful in my follow up because you've chosen to be condescending and patronising in your response based on an inaccurate assumption that you didn't need to make.

Of course, I could have avoided the conflict. You could've too, if you had assumed good faith instead of assuming a hostile motive. This is why many communities have an "assume good faith" rule so that people discouraged from stupid spats like these.

So, I'm done. The thread has been moved to the proper forum. Continue.

[mudxdresser]

Well, not to make tooooo fine a point of it, but if you do not know what it means to work professionally with Bitcoin, are you sure you should be advocating the use of Bitcoin so vervently? My work from time to time involves spending Bitcoin and being involved with others who make their living using Bitcoin. And it is you who have missed my point entirely, Bitcoin is always about risk. At the present time, Bitcoin is more risky than private ledger currency systems, ie. banks. So, my point is that it is important to understand the risks inherent in making Bitcoin transactions before basing a business model on them and that there is no particular reason to accept that risk unless you meet one of the criteria I specified in my first sentence. Notice also from your reply to me that you are the one desiring the extra anonyminity of Bitcoin for your own personal reasons and are trying to get producers to accept unnecessary risk for your convenience when they themselves do not need the anonyminity.

I'll give one good example of risk as it happened recently in England and involved millions of dollars in lost Bitcoin. Once folks start using Bitcoin, they tend as most humans do to get careless and leave Bitcoin on their computer without going through the hassle to converted it to a fixed currency. The correct way to minimize risk with Bitcoin is to immediately convert it back to fixed currency after the transaction is done. And one of the best reasons for that is if your hard drive crashes or is stolen, your Bitcoin is gone unless you are very much better at making backups than you were at getting around to the conversion to fixed currency. Don't store money in the form of Bitcoin and therein is the rub for producers, to use Bitcoin with minimal risk, they also need to constantly convert to fixed currency.

I don't know what that means to work with a bitcoin professionally. Bitcoin or any of the cryptocoins are far more anonymous that me sending my credit card and personal information to purchase content from a producer. I think you've missed my point entirely if you even suspect that I was hinting that producers make and sell anything illegal. I don't believe they do anything illegal and my reasons for paying for their service in bitcoin also has nothing to do with anything illegal. It simply means my bank, credit card company, paypal, etc don't need to know I paid for something that I may not want them knowing about. The bitcoin blockchain will certainly show that my wallet paid their wallet but what stops me from having one specific wallet for buying quicksand content and another for other stuff? Still...no bank gets to know about what money was spent. That's my point of all this.

[awdc]

Well, not to make tooooo fine a point of it, but if you do not know what it means to work professionally with Bitcoin, are you sure you should be advocating the use of Bitcoin so vervently? My work from time to time involves spending Bitcoin and being involved with others who make their living using Bitcoin. And it is you who have missed my point entirely, Bitcoin is always about risk. At the present time, Bitcoin is more risky than private ledger currency systems, ie. banks. So, my point is that it is important to understand the risks inherent in making Bitcoin transactions before basing a business model on them and that there is no particular reason to accept that risk unless you meet one of the criteria I specified in my first sentence. Notice also from your reply to me that you are the one desiring the extra anonyminity of Bitcoin for your own personal reasons and are trying to get producers to accept unnecessary risk for your convenience when they themselves do not need the anonyminity.

I'll give one good example of risk as it happened recently in England and involved millions of dollars in lost Bitcoin. Once folks start using Bitcoin, they tend as most humans do to get careless and leave Bitcoin on their computer without going through the hassle to converted it to a fixed currency. The correct way to minimize risk with Bitcoin is to immediately convert it back to fixed currency after the transaction is done. And one of the best reasons for that is if your hard drive crashes or is stolen, your Bitcoin is gone unless you are very much better at making backups than you were at getting around to the conversion to fixed currency. Don't store money in the form of Bitcoin and therein is the rub for producers, to use Bitcoin with minimal risk, they also need to constantly convert to fixed currency.

I don't know what that means to work with a bitcoin professionally. Bitcoin or any of the cryptocoins are far more anonymous that me sending my credit card and personal information to purchase content from a producer. I think you've missed my point entirely if you even suspect that I was hinting that producers make and sell anything illegal. I don't believe they do anything illegal and my reasons for paying for their service in bitcoin also has nothing to do with anything illegal. It simply means my bank, credit card company, paypal, etc don't need to know I paid for something that I may not want them knowing about. The bitcoin blockchain will certainly show that my wallet paid their wallet but what stops me from having one specific wallet for buying quicksand content and another for other stuff? Still...no bank gets to know about what money was spent. That's my point of all this.

My statement about not understanding working with Bitcoins professionally was more of confusion on why you would embellish on that statement. It felt like you were just trying to add weight to your argument when really you're just using Bitcoins regardless if you consider it professionally or not. Spending, trading, exchanging, or being involved with others using Bitcoins doesn't seem like it has to do with working with Bitcoins professionally, so again, I'm not clear what it means to use them professionally unless you have more specific examples. To answer your question, yes. I understand a good amount of cryptocurrencies, their market, and how to make use of them. I'm not claiming to be a Bitcoin expert, I only reference bitcoin because it's the most prevalent and recognized coin.

I'm aware that there are risks in using these coins. I may not have understood your point as-written but I was trying to address that my intentions with were not related to the producers or myself doing anything illegal. What you wrote originally seemed to suggest that bitcoins are only for illegal products..."Since the mud producers on this forum are producing a legal product, there is no reason for them to handle transactions in Bitcoin.". This logic implies that because their product is legal, there's no need to use a bitcoin? Does that mean only illegal products warrant using bitcoins? That's the point I was trying to address and clarify that I am not suggesting anything illegal is being done by either party.

No need to point out that I'm the one looking for extra anonymity; I've made it completely clear in multiple posts. I'm suggesting an idea to the producers which benefit not only me, but possibly others who could benefit from the same. I can see your concern on accepting risk, but my point at that time was to determine if the risk was worthy of the benefit of gaining possibly more customers which is why I started the discussion. I know now that none of the producers wh9o responded are interested so I'm not trying to continue to convince them; I'm only clarifying this for our discussion. As for mitigating risk, there are services that can be used for point of sale operations for small business. This will help merchants and business owners to accept payments using coins. it's like when paypal first started...acceptance was difficult but eventually it caught on.

Losing a wallet is a risk. So is losing your real-life wallet especially if you're carrying millions of dollars in it (which I know is an exaggeration, but more to the point the more money in your wallet, the more concerned you'll be about it). People just need to be aware to make a simple backup of it. Storing currency in online wallets is bad practice so using the desktop wallet is the best option.

[awdc]

This wasn't a simple assumption; it was an accurate assessment which is furthermore supported by your follow-up response.

It begins and ends here. I expressed surprise (Is this not what "Good lord" often precedes?), especially as this is the only time I've seen anyone on this forum take the time to write detailed responses to every comment, and offered a suggestion.

You responded with an assumption. In fact, you're assuming your "assessment" of my intent was accurate, which it is not. Your entire rebuttal of my comments hinges on the presumption that you know exactly what I intended. I've chosen to be hostile and untactful in my follow up because you've chosen to be condescending and patronising in your response based on an inaccurate assumption that you didn't need to make.

Of course, I could have avoided the conflict. You could've too, if you had assumed good faith instead of assuming a hostile motive. This is why many communities have an "assume good faith" rule so that people discouraged from stupid spats like these.

So, I'm done. The thread has been moved to the proper forum. Continue.

Perhaps it's a difference in our locations and usage of the phrase, but typically using "Good lord" in an opening statement is indicative of a satirical or negative connotation. My assessment (or if you want to call it an assumption) was based on that and applying good faith to your original response was a challenge. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it felt. Since you've clarified your usage of it as surprise and I wrongly interpreted your meaning, I offer you my apology for assuming it as a negative intent.

[Aiko]

Based on my knowledge of Bitcoin I can confirm that everything awdc has said about this currency and its properties is correct. Even so, I understand that from a business viewpoint, two customers willing to spend more on videos is definitely not sufficient reason for any producer to bother accepting Bitcoins.

I think I'll let this topic rest for maybe a year or so. (And I recommend that you do too, awdc. Though I understand your enthusiasm for cryptocurrencies I don't see how pushing this topic further now could possibly do any good.)

Things might be different by the end of 2014. We live in interesting times.

[mudxdresser]

I agree, this topic is already well explored. I'll address only the confusion on what a the difference is in something being professional. In this useage, profession means my work is subject to peer and supervisory review in a formal work environment. When I do something with Bitcoin, my work and opinions are subject to validation by others. Very much like the difference between getting advice from a doctor as opposed to someone off the street. The advice from either may be right or wrong, but the doctor is a professional and must be professionally responsible for his advice. Not so for the person off the street, he can say anything and there is no consequence if he is wrong, you'll never see him again.

[cnelson566]

I've never used bitcoin,but reading about them is quite interesting. I hear banks are scared witless of them,and want them shut down badly,which in my opinion makes them a very promising currency in the future.