Censorship?

[Regisblb]

Well, since you asked....

I stopped posting here a while back for this reason.

Some comments of mine that were critical of a producer's business model were deleted by that producer. I think it's a conflict of interest for producers to double as moderators of discussions about their work. Since they're paying the bills, they can do it ... but in at least one instance I felt that power was abused, so I decided to opt out.

The tone of the original post and some of the producers' replies in this thread seem to take it for granted that producers are beyond criticism and anyone who feels "disaffected" requires "debunking." There's a circular logic at work there, I would argue.

[Duncan Edwards]

Well, since you asked....

I stopped posting here a while back for this reason.

Some comments of mine that were critical of a producer's business model were deleted by that producer. I think it's a conflict of interest for producers to double as moderators of discussions about their work. Since they're paying the bills, they can do it ... but in at least one instance I felt that power was abused, so I decided to opt out.

The tone of the original post and some of the producers' replies in this thread seem to take it for granted that producers are beyond criticism and anyone who feels "disaffected" requires "debunking." There's a circular logic at work there, I would argue.

I wasn't going to say anything, but Regisblb hit the nail on the head and I felt I should add my voice to his.

I too stopped posting a ways back for the same reason. There's a quiet censorship going on here, especially where it concerns the producers.

That's not to say I don't appreciate the forum and think it's not serving a good purpose. But Regis is right, this entire thread feels like an attempt to attack and debunk anyone who has criticism.

I imagine Regis and I have just opened ourselves up to an onslaught...lol. It's cool, only spoke up cause you guys asked.

Back to lurking I go.

You are confusing "censorship" with disagreement. If you say something that the majority of the crowd disagrees with then you might expect a substantial response. That's not "censorship".

As for Regisblb argument having been deleted from a forum a while back I don't know the specifics but I don't think it's incumbent on any of the producers to give voice to someone bent on damaging their business in their own forum. You can certainly disagree and the best way to do that is to make constructive suggestions to the producers or take your business elsewhere. You can suggest a different way to do things but after repeated efforts if your arguments have no merit then you might not expect to gain a very wide audience. Trying to argue that 2+2=5 will likely engender a lively discussion that will not go your way. You could always take your criticisms to another venue and see if they gain any traction there.

But Regis is right, this entire thread feels like an attempt to attack and debunk anyone who has criticism.

Honestly I suppose that is at least one purpose of this thread. If you have a valid disagreement then it should hold up. Would you care to give vent to such a criticism?

[dlodoski]

I split this separate discussion from a locked topic because, well, locking this sort of issue is rather incriminating.

....As for Regisblb argument having been deleted from a forum a while back I don't know the specifics but I don't think it's incumbent on any of the producers to give voice to someone bent on damaging their business in their own forum....

Exactly.

Insulting a producer in his own forum is akin to insulting someone in their own home. That's the way I see it. That's how I'm going to respond.

I'd like to leave this open to discussion.

In a more general sense, I'd like folks who feel that there is actual censorship of actual ideas or thoughts or valid criticism to cite examples when they broach topics like this and/or so easily say "here here".

[MadMax359]

personally, most of the times when i see a producer's offering that doesn't appeal to me, i just move on to the next post and say nothing
sometimes when the item is close to what i like but just a bit off, i'll state my preference
when i see something that i love, i add my voices to the praise

i''m assuming that producers would want to have feedback so they can better serve their customers; even if you're selling 100 units, wouldn't it be better to sell 120?

but i am confused by the comparison of this forum and someone's house; i thought this was a public place for all

[dlodoski]

Insulting a producer in his own forum is akin to insulting someone in their own home. That's the way I see it. That's how I'm going to respond.

Depends on what you consider an insult. No one goes into a home expecting to be able to express themselves, they do, however, expect to be able to do that in a forum. With so many different personalities, there is bound to be vast opinions that spread across the entire spectrum ,from good to bad. The fact that the forum is tied into a business changes things. In this it differs from other such places. You have an interest to protect, which I fully understand, but then you also have a forum set up to be a community for expression. Your stuck walking a fine line. Once again....conflict of interest....

......but i am confused by the comparison of this forum and someone's house; i thought this was a public place for all

Quicksandfans was formed under the mandate that the quicksand community should only have to go one place to enjoy what's available freely online. That's why we have a 'public' discussion/contribution area in the same venue as producer forums.

Another mandate was that there would be a clear distinction between producer controlled areas of the board and public areas. The producer forums (specifically moderated by each respective producer) are seen as separate forums within the larger message board structure. The public area is "a public place for all".

So, TheWolverine79's points are well taken, but are off the mark. We have a huge area for 'expression', and it thrives. But it's not in the producer forums.

[Chimerix]

but i am confused by the comparison of this forum and someone's house; i thought this was a public place for all

Public places tend to be places that citizens have ownership in. For example, a public park is supported by taxpayer dollars; thus, any taxpayer has a right to be there, and to have a say in what goes on there.

This forum is not funded by taxes. The bill every month has one person's name on it. If that person decides to exert control over what is said or done on his/her property, boo-yah! There's nothing public about this forum; you're here because the owner has decided to allow you here. So far, it seems to me that said owner has been pretty generous in allowing people to express themselves.

[dlodoski]

The thing is that I don't have a sense of ownership of Quicksandfans. When I wrote 'my forum', I really meant my own (MPV) forum. In hindsight, I should have been more specific.

Quicksandfans comes with more of a sensation of responsibility than anything else.

Quite frankly, what happened some months ago, is that both Regisblb and myself, in a spur of the moment situation, behaved poorly. For my part, I over-reacted to not being able to be the first to address a question about how my business is organized. I think if my answer had been deemed unsatisfactory, I would have tolerated some criticism. The incident and the result were beneath both of us. So I'd rather just leave it at that.

[mudxdresser]

I for one have apparently learned something I never knew, that there is a difference in the tenor of comments allowed in the producer areas versus the general areas. My only observation is that I've never picked up on that difference as actually existing.

[Regisblb]

Quite frankly, what happened some months ago, is that both Regisblb and myself, in a spur of the moment situation, behaved poorly. For my part, I over-reacted to not being able to be the first to address a question about how my business is organized. I think if my answer had been deemed unsatisfactory, I would have tolerated some criticism. The incident and the result were beneath both of us. So I'd rather just leave it at that.

Dave, I would ask that you just speak for yourself on this point.

[mudxdresser]

Upon reflection, I think once again the issue has been misdirected at the "producers" entity when what is really being discussed is the issue of the forum being controlled by someone, whether they are a "producer" or not. What is being asked for is a forum that is not controlled by anyone specific and that allows any form of legally phrased speech, AnonymousQuicksand anyone? There are some other mud related forums, mainly on the gay side of the equation, that do a fairly good job of this, however, no one has set up a successful forum of this type on this side of the fence.

So my point is that it is futile to lament the reality of this situation by harassing the person who controls a given forum, why should they give up control of something that they created? Instead, direct your ire towards the sad fact that no one else will step up and put the time, effort, and resources into creating a new forum that they do not intervene in to control beyond the most basic legalities if you want to vent your frustration at the situation. Or if you want to do something positive, be part of the solution and help get a new forum started that has the characteristics that are considered to be missing here.